VMs: J.VS Volume II (2008) subjects etc. From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 1/01/09 6:43 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested, below [1] is the list of subject-lines from all J.VS communications during 2008 (J.VS Archive Vol. II). For interested newcomers, the url links to the archival website of the Journal of Voynich Studies are: Front-page http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/ J.VS Formal Rules page http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSFormalRules.htm List of Subjects in all Volumes page http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSCOMsubjlines.htm Vol. I (2007) Archive page http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolI2007.htm Vol. II (2008) Archive page http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolII2008.htm Vol. III (2009) Archive page http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm The simplest way to keep up-to-date on J.VS material is to check the List of Subjects in all Volumes page, to see if any new communications have come in since last time. The Library of the Journal of Voynich Studies occupies a separate website hosted by the web-servers of the Mt. Suhora Astronomical Observatory. The Library has extensive and growing Voynich materials, and it is where the Voynich Manuscript Studies Interactive Timeline is available online. The url link to the Index page of the J.VS Library is here: Index page to the Library of J.VS http://www.as.ap.krakow.pl/jvs/library/ Berj / KI3U [1] List of subject-lines from all J.VS communications during 2008 (J.VS Archive Vol. II): Vol. II, 2008, communications #134 - #236 134: Thank you 135: conyio vs congio and Conye etc. and the elusive Baresch 136: The New Year brings a new member 137: Inscriptions of specimens of Congius Farnesianus 138: Comments on the Voynich f68r3 PM-curve question 139: off-J discussions 9 - 12 JAN 2008, various topics 140: Library subcollection 0-7-2007-01-12 on Image processing (140:, 155:) 141: New paper by Robert Teague: Translations of some Labels in the VM 142: Robert Teague's Seven Voynich Letters 143: Iterative translation of Latin, VMS scientific testing, and other off-J discussions 12 - 17 JAN 2008 144: Library deposit # 11-4-2008-01-18: The Lost Notes of Georgius Baresch, by Jan Hurych 145: Alchemical Herbal Eyes, and the Steganographic Face Problem 146: vocabula nova et fictitia (146:, 147:, 149:, 150:, 151:, 152:) 148: Painting Art with the Script of a Language of Nouns 153: Baresch's lost notes become fish-wrap paper? 154: Looking for cracks in the ice on the trail of Georgius Baresch 156: The Voynich hypothetical f76r text-art portrait: how was it done? (156:, 157:, 163:) 158: The problem of test protocols for hypothetical steganographic hand-script text-art 159: Library deposit # 12-4-2008-02-04: The Research of the Voynich Manuscript, by Jan Hurych 160: Neural networks and cellular automata in VMS text-attacks 161: Debating Johannes Marcus Marci as possible Voynich MS author 162: A quick qualitative experiment comparing a paragraph with its boustrophedon version (162:, 164:) 165: Crypto-economics of boustrophedon effects; In-line boustrophedon switching 166: Transcribing Voynich text to music 167: Voynich clefs and key signatures 168: Work and transcription decisions involved in converting Voynich text to music 169: From Voynich MS music to Voynich MS speech 170: Experimental Piano Concertos of Voynich texts f20rp1 and f95r2p1 in C Major 171: ALCIONE / ALCYONE on astro f68r3 and Voynich-text to speech conversion challenges 172: Boustrophedon versions of the Voynich experimental f20r and f95r2 music transcriptions 173: Some hypothetical steganographic faces in the Voynich f93r Sunflower folio spill-stain 174: Library deposit # 13-4-2008-03-06: The Search for Numerical Codes in the VM, by Jan Hurych 175: Voynich f79v and SOL DEUS CHRISTUS 176: A Problem concerning Eulerian Circuits in Voynich Text (176:, 177:, 178:) 178: Some notes on Eulerian text-circuit analysis for Order Nv = 3 (176:, 177:, 178:) 179: Cosmology in the Voynich MS and the f68v3 "Spiral Galaxy" panel 180: The emblem-animal plant-leaves of Voynich botanical illustration f9r 181: Voynich steganography: The Boy Astronomer of f103v 182: Steganography: The Book-covers Binding of the Voynich Manuscript 183: Similar steganographic Color Physics depictions in Voynich f76r and Binding front-cover 184: Some possible steganographic script on the Voynich Binding Front-cover 185: Voynich steganography reference: f80v CATWOMAN's cat-face versus f1r Tepenece 186: Patterns within random patterns and the steganography problem 187: The Spectre of Archives Splitting: Scottish Catholic Archives 188: M. Fincher's Word Pair Permutation Analysis 189: Sequence Spectra of text-signals and Equal Statistics Analysis 190: Latin language boost 191: Possible versus Impossible Sequence Spectra, and Associated Relations 192: Materials from Richard Santa-Coloma's visit to the Grolier Club 193: Voynich Biographical Data and "Mrs Anna Mill" (193:, 194:, 198:) 194: Voynich Biographical Data and "Ivan Kelchevsky" (193:, 194:, 195:, 196:, 197:, 199:, 200:) 201: Palaeography and Image-Processing online paper 202: Paper on VMS zodiac crowned nymphs by Robert Teague in Library 203: Reference Data for Analysis of Signal Sequence Series (189:, 191:, 204:, 205:, 206:, 207:, 208:, 209:, 210:) 204: Distribution of pillows and non-pillows in comm. #203 series examples; NvP Topography 205: Series of Sequences vs Sequences of Sequences: Super-sequence Deviation Reference Data 206: The signals series in evolution: VF(j) Reference Data 207: NvP Sequence Spectra Topographic comparisons: Voynich folio f111r text vs Askham's Menta Rubea (207:, 208:, 209:) 210: Wave propagation along the center-longitudinal in the sequence-spectrum space of the Voynich f111r text (210:, 211:, 236:) 212: Byzantine Musical Notation 213: Are Gold and other metal particles embedded in the Voynich manuscript parchments? 214: 14th c. Canterbury brass astrolabe, and the 13th c. Dering Roll ms (214:, 215:, 216:) 217: The latest Mozart discovery, and the adventures of worthy documents 218: Baresch's Alembic / Retort, and Voynich f88r 219: Some non-English language Voynich websites 220: CM: The Journal's new mailing address 221: Image artifacts, or obliterated Voynich-similar script? 222: Variations on the name: Baresch / Barschius (222:, 223:) 224: Mnissowsky's Jesuit coals (224:, 225:) 226: Asterisms in Voynich illustration f85r2 227: Estimating the Geo-latitude of the Voynich f85r2 philosopher 228: The Chateau de Lusignan castle of the Duc du Berry 229: The Voynich f67-68 parchment: Heliocentrism versus Geocentrism 230: Voynich Manuscript folios for heliocentric content evaluation 231: Some proposed corrections to the voyn_101.txt transcription of the VMS 232: The Voynich Manuscript: A Teacher's resource for the education of school children 233: T-glyph Codes 234: The steganographic Angulis Crucis cipher-codes of Bernardus de Martinitz in Kircher's papers 235: A new Leonardo discovery 236: A thought on the 'wave' structures described in J.VS comm. #210 (210:, 211:, 236:) *************************************************************************** Subject RE: VMs: RE: Theories - Herbal Parsimony -Falcon of Falcon Sent Date 01-07-2009 7:43:38 PM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Terri Burns wrote Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:08:07 -0600: " Or perhaps even texts used and created by physicians were often secret? In fact they often were. ..... relevant in a right-brain sort of way ..... I'd suspect some might well be poisons ..... Whatever this "secret manuscript" was (any of you know?) you can bet the copy was not made in a format anyone could read-- but, I would guess, to look like something that a physician *should* have. Its not unreasonable to make a similar hypothesis about the Voynich. " The Voynich manuscript has the amazing and elaborate nine-rosettes foldout, arguably the book's most dramatic section, and its climax. If the VMS is just a physician's secret book of recipes / poisons, then it is hard to understand what the nine rosettes foldout is doing in there, with all the trouble that went into crafting it. Its construction suggests, at least to me, that a mathematician *should* have it, at least as much as any doctor. Berj / KI3U ****************************************** Subject VMs: The VMS's degree of physician-ness Sent Date 01-08-2009 10:16:07 AM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To In the 01-07-2009 11:51:51 PM vms-list post " RE: VMs: RE: Theories - Herbal Parsimony -Falcon of Falcon " Knox wrote: " ..... I am glad to see someone else suggest the VMs is not necessarily the work of a physician. Given the range of the word "physician" and the number of physicians, the VMs could be related to a field of that practice (or study) but I think we go against logic to say, positively, that the VMs was created by a physician. There is nothing concrete known to exclude it from being created by a non-physician. Auspicious charts with rows and columns or flasks of urine would be evidence. Researchers, who have yet to read a word of the script, can not consider readings relating to medical knowledge reported by others. To do so would sacrifice objectivity. Beyond the indisputable, each must pose his own "ifs". " Hi Knox Agreed. Well I think the VMS author knew anatomy alright. For example, it's been suggested that the nine rosettes foldout symbolizes human gestation. I can go with that up to a point: you have nine rosettes for each of the nine months, there are possibilities for interpreting some of the rosettes as female reproductive organs both internal and external, and Brumbaugh's clock can be interpreted as the input spermatozoon, and that little organism in the upper-right rosette might be seen as the developing fetus, although it would have been better placed in the central "womb" rosette. But what about other features like the castles, the pentagonal spiral text, the endless details and the prime numbers? It is difficult to believe this amazing illustration is just concerned with medicine, even medicine in a broader astrological context. If it is admitted that a major philosophy, within which health / medicine is included, is being projected, then it seems that that philosophy is concerned with far more than just medicine, and that the author has deep geophysical, anthopological, mythological, psychological, and mathematical sensitivities. My take on the VMS is that medicine is an aspect of the author's life, perhaps a means of putting bread on the table, but he / she is way beyond practical medicine in the VMS. The VMS author, in addition to being highly classics trained, is an advanced mathematician, physicist with special expertise in color optics, and astronomer, advanced in the scientific or proto-scientific sense. The VMS author is an artist, and a polymath way beyond what is necessary to be a practicing physician. It is the details of the VMS which so powerfully show the scope and magnitude of the author's mind and capabilities. Details, details, details. Sure, many details can be ignored to suit one theory or another, but even so the sheer volume of unusual details in the whole VMS compels addressing at least some of them sooner or later if a convincing evaluation of the VMS is to be obtained. As a step toward that I have offered " CATWOMAN " on folio f80v to serve as a reference, a reference with measurable properties, and I concluded: " I suggest that we don't need acid accidents and faith to see CATWOMAN's cat-face. " [1] CATWOMAN is the stark reality check that SUBTLE DETAILS in the VMS can't be ignored if one is to make progress understanding this manuscript. Those details suggest that the VMS author is far more than a physician concerned with hiding secret concoctions. Berj / KI3U [1] Journal of Voynich Studies communication #185 (29 APR 2008, Vol. II): J.VS: Voynich steganography reference: f80v CATWOMAN's cat-face versus f1r Tepenece; by Berj / KI3U. http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolII2008.htm ********************************************************* Subject RE: VMs: fragments vs boustrophen Sent Date 01-11-2009 12:24:04 PM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To John wrote Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:43:20 -0500: " Illumin8 suggests that the odd distortion could be attributed to – On f105r, the third paragraph the page being affected by time, perhaps shrinkage etc causing a slight – ducks below text that angle to the last few words. This seems reasonable for some – seems to come from nowhere, of the distorted examples. - yet the Gallows pop up amidst - the right justified (sort of) text. " On the SID image of f105r, at maximum resolution, one would then expect to see the parchment grain, which is visible, to show indication of distortion / shrinkage. I don't see any such indications. Berj / KI3U **************************** Subject VMs: Martinus Santinus, S.J. writes to Kircher Sent Date 01-25-2009 12:34:03 AM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To For all who are interested, here are a couple of Santinus letters to look at: APUG 567, 27rv 20 JUL 1640 letter from Prague by Martinus Santinus to Kircher; Dr. Marcus (Marci) mentioned, and also it looks like a Padre Ignatius, but no mention of Moretus; subject of letter seems to be science. http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/567/large/027r.jpg http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/567/large/027v.jpg APUG 567, 89rv 14 OCT 1645 letter from Prague by Martinus Santinus to Kircher; heavily stained; subject seems to be chemical mysteries and this letter may have significant potential in connection with invisible-ink writing as per J.VS communication #221 [1]. http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/567/large/089r.jpg http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/567/large/089v.jpg Berj / KI3U [1] Journal of Voynich Studies communication #221 (13 OCT 2008, Vol. II): J.VS: Image artifacts, or obliterated Voynich-similar script? http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolII2008.htm ******************************************************* Subject RE: VMs: Martinus Santinus, S.J. writes to Kircher Sent Date 01-25-2009 11:24:20 AM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Rene Zandbergen wrote Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:01:29 -0800: " Pater Ignatius is almost certainly Ignatius Roio S.J. who was one of the people accompanying Marci on his trip to Rome. The letter seems to say that they have not yet returned from their trip. " r Rene. I had not made the Ignatius to Roio connection, although Roio does ring a bell from deep within the volcanically growing Mount Voynichdata - thanks - I shall have to go do some mining in the spirit of Jules Verne :). Fortunately everything J.VS is absolutely time-stamped. " On 3 August in the same year, Marci writes to Kircher from Regensburg, while still on his way back from Rome to Prague. " That is close to the time that Marci and Kircher were working on trying to decipher the intercepted General Baner (Banner) letter, if I am remembering correctly from off-J discussions ; Greg Stachowski and Jan Hurych are far more atop the details of this than me. We've pondered if Kircher was assuming that the codes in Baner's letter mapped to syllables. Berj ********************************** RE: VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 1/31/09 5:51 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich Santa-Coloma wrote Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:42:23 +0000: " The Brueghels were quite aware of Drebbel and his inventions, by the way. The first image of a sunflower in Europe was painted by "flower" Brueghels (Jan the younger, I think) in the Stalbempt "Curio Cabinet" painting in the Prado... one of the two with Drebbel's perpetual motion clock in it. .......... And of course I am interested to find out more about any connection with Drebbel... who was very involved in mining, and fountains, and automatia, and so on... when these were not common pursuits at the time. Well, mining was. " For what it's worth, to add to Drebbel information, in a 16 SEP 1647 letter to Kircher (557 APUG 237-238rv), Cyprian Kinner mentions "Drebbeliano Globo" : http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/557/large/237r.jpg http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/557/large/237v.jpg http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/557/large/238r.jpg http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/557/large/238v.jpg on line 18 of 237v. Cyprian's letter seems quite interesting as regards science of the day. Cyprian Kinner connects to Dr. Raphael Mnischowsky as we learn from Jan Hurych here: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/library/8-4-2007-11-10/ Berj / KI3U *********************************************************** RE: VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/01/09 12:07 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich Santa-Coloma wrote Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:23:42 +0000: " Do we have a translation of these pages? " Hi Rich. Not that I know of. The letter certainly seems worth transcribing and translating though. " So Kinner discussed, with Kircher, the New Atlantis, the Voynich, and Drebbel's perpetuum (unrelated by him, of course). And he knew Mnischowsky. " This is Cyprian of course, the "other" Kinner, as opposed to Godefridi, who also presents problems for VMS research. Now, there is a possible mysterious manuscript angle here with Cyprian [1] knowing Raphael Mnishowsky: if for the moment we take the standard popular theoretical history of the VMS as essentially true, and we add the above Raphael knows Cyprian and Cyprian knows about Drebbel, and take an implication that Raphael too knows plenty about Drebbel, then Raphael, who in the last letter of Marci is painted as the source of a rumor about the provenance of the Marci-Prague-Sphynx-manuscript leading back to Roger Bacon, might have rumored instead Cornelius Drebbel, if that manuscript were indeed by Drebbel. Needless to say nothing is yet on a firm foundation, and as noted many times by others Mnishowsky would likely have been an old man at the time he told Marci something, and Marci was near the end of his life when he told Kircher the rumor, decades after he himself heard the information from Mnischowsky. But there seems to be no doubt that everyone in the back-then VMS picture knew about Drebbel and his achievements. Berj [1] Cyprian Kinner seems to have been for a while associated with the famous Moravian teacher Comenius, until they had a falling out. That story links to the Hartlib Circle, the forerunner of the Royal Society: http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/texts/viewtext.php?id=OTHE00061&mode=normalized *************************************** RE: VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/01/09 5:45 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich Santa-Coloma wrote Sun, 1 Feb 2009 06:06:34 +0000: " Raphael should have recognized it as a work of Drebbel (if it was), and yet he did not. " Raphael Mnischowsky allegedly thinking the VMS was by Roger Bacon, is also somewhat bizarre in my view. Mnischowsky was after all the go-to guy when you needed to tidy up the messy aftermath of a major political assassination. One would think he'd be the kind of guy who would be very up on details, and either report accurately, or have a good reason for reporting mis-information. What could make anyone back then think the VMS, with its transitioning-out-of-medieval-style was authored by Roger Bacon? That's tough for me to work out. " Therefore I am in a funny position: ....... " Well, many if not all of us are in funny positions. Take the f1r situation for instance: Wilfrid Voynich does a chemical warfare attack on f1r and gets a lot of folks, at times including me, to read "Tepenece" in the smoldering ruins. And that one gets even funnier when faith in the f1r "Tepenece" is fortified with comparisons to "Sinapius". Recently as you know even a funny new principle has emerged in VMS research, which goes something like: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it can't be a duck because it is too much like a duck! " If Kinner and Marci and Newbold did not see microscopes or the New Atlantis in the VMs, then how can I? " Well as you know, before I had ever heard of you I very briefly made a comparison of Hooke's microscope, as illustrated in his Micrographia, with the cylindrical objects in the VMS pharma section, but I didn't get anywhere and dropped the idea, after only vaguely hinting in a post that the VMS socalled "pharma" section might be the back-then equivalent of a "microbiology" section. So when you came along with your much further developed ideas on this I was naturally inclined to be open-minded toward the possibility that the VMS author depicted a microscope or two in the "pharma" section. The most important thing that I think you have developed is a.) which leads to b.) : a.) valuable comparisons between certain period microscopes and some of the VMS pharma section cylindrical objects, and those comparisons, in their details, are striking. If someone thinks your comparisons are funny, then by rights they'd be roaring themselves off a cliff over "Tepenece". b.) an answer to the question: what is a microscope doing in the VMS "pharma" section? This was the wall which had stopped me from going further when I was investigating Robert Hooke's microscope. But as a result of your constant Drebbel hammering I finally realized that at the dawn of serious microscopy it would have been exactly logical to investigate botanical objects. After all, those people knew nothing about parameciums and such, but they all revered herbs as essential to life and well-being. It is manifestly logical that a powerful new instrument would immediately be trained upon pharmacopeia, which of course includes water wherein paramecia may be discovered. Even more so from an alchemical herbal frame of mind it seems to me. " I can't speak for them, but I do, nonetheless, see it, and continue to pursue it. " And why not? As implied above, it is the power of an idea which makes it useful, and if some deductions from it turn out incorrect then that's just cost of doing business. And if the wolves continue howling at your style then that's funny too :) Berj ********************************** RE: Cyprian Kinner and Mnischowsky (was VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap...) From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/01/09 9:41 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote Sun, 1 Feb 2009 20:59:22 +0000: " This link seems not to work. " I just tried it and it worked fine. " What is the evidence connecting these two people? " I read " ... also claimed (as per Czech sources) ... " Further clarification would have to come from Jan. Berj / KI3U *************************************************** RE: Cyprian Kinner and Mnischowsky (was VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap...) From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 2/02/09 12:44 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote Sun, 1 Feb 2009 16:16:05 -0800: " Now one thing bothers me: which "Cyprian" was Kircher corresponding with? With Mnishowsky's Cyprian or Dr. Cyprian? " The 557 APUG 237-238rv letter, written 16 SEP 1647 and addressed to Athanasius Kircher, wherein is written "Drebbeliano Globo", is signed: Cyprianus Kinnerus Med. Doctor, and has a manu propria underneath. So this Cyprian Kinner is certainly also a Dr. Kinner. Perhaps just as Dr. Raphael Missowski / Mnischowsky was known as Dr. Raphael, then too Dr. Cyprian Kinner was known as Dr. Cyprian. In the Newton Project reference: http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/texts/viewtext.php?id=OTHE00061&mode=normalized we get information about something that occurred five days before our above letter was written: " In Comenius's letter of 11 September 1647 dismissing his assistant Cyprian Kinner, one of the wide assortment of grounds listed is that he could not afford to pay Kinner on account of his debts, especially to Moriaen, whom he owed 100 Imperials.[150] (An unimpressed Kinner added the marginal note, 'Huh! do you want to take away the salary I have already earned? Settle your debts yourself.'[151]) " It all seems to be getting more complicated Jan - that could increase the possibilities for hitting upon a new surprise. Berj ***************************** RE: Cyprian Kinner and Mnischowsky (was VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap...) From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 2/02/09 2:44 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:25:30 -0800: " I cannot dismiss the duality of names so aesily: " Yes I appreciate the problem you are pointing out: is "Cyprian Kinner" moving in Protestant circles, or Catholic circles, and right into the Imperial court no less? I am still at the confused stage of all this, but as you conjectured earlier perhaps there were two of these same-named Kinners active about thirty years apart. Perhaps we have a Catholic-father and Protestant-son situation. On the other hand could we imagine a Catholic "young enthusiast" Cyprian Kinner at the court before the war, and decades later while the war is still on he is now an assistant to Protestant teacher Comenius, and is also writing to Jesuit Kircher. Hmm. " ..... does Museo Kircheriano provides some biography or any account of the mentioned doctor of medicine? Where was the letter written from? " Well the APUG database (accessed by Luna Insight) doesn't tell anything that we can't figure out immediately from the letter itself. At the end of his 16 SEP 1647 letter to Kircher, Cyprian Kinner notes he is writing from Elbinga (Elbing) in Borussia. Berj *********************** Subject RE: VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap... Sent Date 02-02-2009 10:19:17 AM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Rich Santa-Coloma wrote Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:36:58 +0000: " ..... I also have wondered at (and posted about) the Bacon/Bacon confusion. That is, if Raphael felt the VMs was somehow an F.Bacon work, that someone (Marci?) later misinterpreted this information as "R.Bacon"... since the two have been confused since they were alive. Or that Raphael heard "Bacon", and assumed, and reported, "R" instead of "F". What are your thoughts on this? " I have been pondering that: the last two letters of Marci, one being among Kircher's papers (APUG), the other the famous Wilfrid Ausgabe, have a similar hand, and also are the only ones where "Marci" is suddenly signing himself in letters to his old friend Kircher as "a Cronland", as having been written for Marci by someone, possibly a woman, and she was the one who could have confused Roger Bacon and Francis Bacon. I just cannot imagine Marci and Mnishowsky confusing Roger and Francis. In the modern times famous example it is hard to understand how Miss Nill could have thought that Dr. Strong would confuse the two, unless it was a deliberate insult to Dr. Strong. I can see confusion on Roger versus Francis in less well educated people, or maybe at the very early student stage, but not at the mature stage. Berj ***************************** Subject RE: VMs: RE: Cyprian Kinner and Mnischowsky (was VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap...) Sent Date 02-02-2009 10:30:01 AM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Jan Hurych wrote Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:44:31 +0100: " I mistyped it as "physics", but now I think they could have meant he became a "physician" that woudl mean doctor of medicine, so you might be right after all. Still he did not call himself in the letter " the doctor of physic", but "of medicine". Alre those titles interchangeable? " I'm not sure yet. Physics as we understand it used to be known as "natural philosophy". Also, I had the two Cyprians about thirty years apart, but now it seems more like forty. So we do still seem to have two Cyprian Kinners to sort out. Berj *********************************** RE: VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap...? From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 2/02/09 6:34 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Bunny wrote Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:54:37 +0000: " Just a thought, whether the letter is real or fake Roger Bacon could be an obtuse reference to someone rather than the actual person. A Catholic, a Franciscan, someone "not afraid to speak out" among his peers. An innovator ahead of his time in mathematics, astronomy, optics, alchemy or languages. Maybe someone with similar qualities who others referred to as "a Roger Bacon" of his time, and clearly understood who was meant by this in the relevant circles. " Yes, something like that seems plausible to me. Two or three years ago I suggested that "Roger Bacon" in the context of Marci's last letter may be a code for a secret scientific society. I went so far as to suggest that Wilfrid Voynich had figured that out, and went along with it: that would explain why he insisted to the end that his mysterious manuscript was traceable to "Roger Bacon". Berj **************************** RE: Cyprian Kinner and Mnischowsky (was VMs: Progress closing the 1610/20 gap...) From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 2/02/09 7:45 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:26:20 -0800: " There is no doubt in my mind now that it was the "English" Cyprian who wrote to Kircher. ....... So there you have it. Just imagine that letter going - still during the war - from territory occupied by Swedes to Rome! " Yes, it reminds me of Moretus transporting Baresch's mysterious script to Kircher during war-time. You earlier mentioned the question of how titles may have been used, and one thing there that comes to mind is Marci being a medical "Doctor Marcus", but also being rather famous as a physicist. So we still have the "young" alchemist Cyprian Kinner at Rudolf's court to figure out. In the newton project material there was a footnote conjecturing he may have been related to Godefridus Kinner. I'm still wondering about names variations - Dr. Raphael being the first example that comes to mind. We have him as Missovski, Mnischowsky, Raphael Sobiehrd-Mnishovsky de Sebuzin & de Horstein, etc. and while we're at it we may as well throw in Missovskius just to cover that base if it ever comes up. So, could there be a name variation that results in these two Cyprian Kinners with their names identical for the moment, but ultimately well resolvable by hitting on the right variation? As you saw me just go over in J.VS comm. #247 there is a real problem in trying to pin down Padre Matthieu's last name: Coupain, Compaius, Compairy, Compairus, Compain, or what? And as we saw, even Kircher seems to have had a problem with it, apparently making a note on the bottom of the 30 SEP 1666 letter of Fr. Matthieu Coupain. Perhaps one clue is the language being used: Fr. Matthieu wrote one letter to Kircher in French, and the other in Latin. Maybe a switch of language occasioned switching more than just the "us" by some of those fellows back then. Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: Research Note? From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 2/02/09 10:25 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Robert Teague wrote Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:51:53 -0500: " f67v1: Tycho's Star, November 1572 That's Tycho in the center, and thanks to a collaboration with Greg Stachowski have the stars sectioned off and identified, as well as the supernova itself. " Hello Robert I can certainly see your logic in taking the f67v1 illustration as depicting a supernova. As I mentioned to you off-J, I do wonder about the nose though. In the diagram the nose looks normal. What was the condition of Tycho's nose at the time of his supernova - should be easy to find out. But, there might nosejob protocols to consider: it may have been impolite for an admiring artist to depict Tycho with other than a normal nose. For what it's worth, one of the little odd gizmos in that diagram has had me wondering, without conclusion, if it was originally meant to be drawn as a star, but was so aborted by the artist. On the perimeter at 10 o'clock framed by box-crosses, is a group of six glyphs which is difficult to transcribe on account of the scribe's masterful ambiguity of GC-p versus GC-h versus AGC-252. But the last glyph is surely a GC-p (EVA-m) variation, with its descender curling back and terminating in a strong dot. To the left of the dot is a little speck of that stuff here and there in the VMS suggesting possible metal and even gold, gold ink or otherwise. Anyway, the GC-p dot is connected to a smudge of normal ink, which on the SID just barely gives indications it may have started out as a hastily drawn tiny star, or something involving crossed strokes. In any case, I still have this one filed as a not-to-be-dismissed-yet detail. Berj *********************** VMs: A Gaspar Schott letter: Santinus maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 2/05/09 1:10 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested, as well as well-rested enough for a little document-archeology, here's a better-note-it-than-ignore-it item: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #248 (4 FEB 2009, Vol. III): J.VS: In a Gaspar Schott letter: Santinus maybe http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ******************************* RE: VMs: Signing off From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 2/05/09 1:18 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jeff Haley wrote Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 00:59:15 +0000: " I won't be participating for the foreseeable future ....... " That's too bad Jeff. Because: exploring Voynichland is a lot more fun when you're around somewhere in there too. Berj ***************************** RE: VMs: Signing off From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 2/05/09 3:41 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Well Jeff that's a load alright which certainly puts VMS considerations well into the background. As for this: " You get on just fine without anyone's help. " I don't think so myself. I see it all in terms of resonance - you have all these coupled resonators (advanced interacting Voynich students) and, to bridge for a moment metaphorically to Prophet Ekwall, we take turns as the medium of the seance and voice the currently circulating waves. Berj *********************************** Re: VMs: A Gaspar Schott letter: Santinus maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 2/05/09 3:35 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene Zandbergen wrote 02-05-2009 2:42:15 AM: " I would say that, if this referred to Santinus, it would have been preceded by 'reverend father', which doesn't appear to be there. " r Rene. And it is of course sufficient that we merely note and file the curiosity. However I am wondering about Schott's level of adherence to conventions in his letter(s), and I gave an example: he seems to use abbreviations in strange ways. For example in 561 APUG 279v, in line 16 underneath the "P. Beck" of line 15, where he gives the name of a Padre that seems to start with a capital "C" but then the next letter, which I'd expect to be a vowel or at least something standard Latin alphabet, is written like a classic Voynich EVA-ch (GC-1). Well, if I'm seeing that right, then from the point of view of VMS text analysis I'm even more curious. Of course figuring out even one sentence necessitates first the labor-intensive studying of his hand, made all the more difficult by the relatively poor condition of the documents. Still, for VMS purposes it may well be worth becoming more familiar with Schott, his hand, and his scripting style. From his known works we can see that his range of interests was so broad, that if, via his mentor Kircher, he had the slightest knowledge of the existence of the VMS we could ponder some projection of his take on it, in his letters. Berj ************************************** Subject Re: VMs: A Gaspar Schott letter: Santinus maybe Sent Date 02-05-2009 8:36:52 PM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Some info - taken directly from J.VS comm. #249: Gaspar Schott's Shola Steganographica, 1665, is available for download (22.4 Mb) from Google books. The scan seems to be excellent, with dozens of code tables, codewheels, pictures of code machines, and musical notation resolving quite crisply. Schott's book is mostly in Latin, but also has sections in German and Italian. The ideas of Trithemius, Porta, and Kircher receive a lot of development. The range of subject matter is rather amazing, and most surprising to me in this crypto-book is the inclusion of a section on herbs! It has an index. Berj ******************* RE: VMs: "out of Order Pages" From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 2/06/09 2:39 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net David Suter wrote Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:18:38 -0500: " Maybe the pages didn't need to be assembled in numerical order because the page number refers to how the text on that page is to be read.... or oriented. " Hi David. It seems to me that the fundamental of that idea could work even with the pages in correct order. Besides, I still like the idea that the pages may actually be in correct order, principally because of the Slavic-nested-dolls construction. [1] Begging your pardon for a shift in topic, but while I have you, what did you think about the ancient Olmec Tablet which Knox reminded us of the other day: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20060814215144data_trunc_sys.shtml I remembered it, but this time around I thought of your maps ideas. What are the step-by-step reasonings which compel the meso-american scholars to see the depictions on this Olmec tablet as writing? Why can't it be a map-diagram of sorts of a town? For example, symbols no. 7 and 40 are apparently identical, and to me they suggest maize, so lets ponder that they represent maize storage granaries at approximately diagonally opposite ends of the town. Berj [1] Journal of Voynich Studies communications #51 - #54 (fm 28 Jun 2007, Vol. I): J.VS: Nested shells perspective of VMS physical construction http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolI2007.htm ************************************************************* RE: VMs: A Gaspar Schott letter: Santinus maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 2/06/09 7:25 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net In Schott's Shola Steganographica, on the book's page 293, Schott speaks of "Saladinus AEgypti Suldanus". Perhaps that's a clue to figuring out what Schott wrote in 561 APUG 279v. Berj ************************************** RE: VMs: A Gaspar Schott letter: Santinus maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 2/07/09 4:16 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Pim wrote Sat, 7 Feb 2009 14:57:03 +0100: " I am interested but cannot find it. The mentioned URL does not respond, the journal cannot be googled. " Hi. Probably you encountered a bandwidth-limit condition: yahoo will refuse to serve downloads beyond a rate of so many bytes per hour (not unreasonable for their excellent free service). Sometimes there are pile-ups, where too many visitors are trying to access the Journal's archive all at the same time (within the same hour). The solution is of course to wait a little and try again later. I just checked the stats and indeed there was a pileup during the last 24 hours. As for googling the Journal, I have no trouble. But google isn't the only search engine worth using, and I often prefer good old Alta Vista as it gets me what I want more efficiently. It seems there are to try and evaluate new search engines arising as competitors to google, like cuil and duck duck. I'm sure they all have an axe of one kind or another to grind, so I like to test them now and then to see who is sharpest. Berj *************************************** Subject RE: VMs: Tower in a hole Sent Date 02-09-2009 2:07:43 PM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Wolfgang wrote Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:13:04 +0100: " BTW this was a very interesting documentary, touching on the crusades of course (the pope's hope of receiving help from the (never identified) Presbyter John ..... (reminds me of "Baudolino" by Umberto Eco). Nothing to do with the VMs "of course ?). " How interesting you mention Prester John: when your post arrived just now I was revisiting him, as I've been writing up a little VMS data-gram which includes him, and also Drebbel and others. This reminds me of what I alluded to the other day - VMS work can seem like a seance with the sitters taking turns as the medium voicing the currently circulating waves in the collective unconscious. I wonder what Jung thought of the VMS. Berj / KI3U ********************** Subject RE: VMs: Tower in a hole Sent Date 02-09-2009 8:07:28 PM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To David Suter wrote Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:54:56 -0500: " Is there evidence Jung knew of the VMs? " I don't know David. I would think he might have known of it, since I do keep running into more little references here and there that a familiar so-and-so from the 20th century commented this-and-that on the VMS. Manly after all wrote on the VMS in Harper's - a very popular magazine in the old days, so the VMS was put out there boldly during Jung's prime. Just before this reply I tried a search and saw what appears to be another cash-in-on-Voynich-tourism deal, connecting Jung and the VMS. I didn't pursue it. Berj ************************ RE: VMs: Tower in a hole / Presbyter John From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 2/10/09 5:58 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Wolfgang wrote Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:39:41 +0100: " You are writing up a little VMS data - gram (which includes the Presbyter John, Drebbel and others). This sounds very interesting!! When can we expect to receive (buy?) a copy? " Hi Wolfgang. I labor as we speak, amidst tasks of far greater urgency than VMS study, to get it ready to plug into the Voynisphere. I expect to have it sometime later today and will notify. Berj ************************* VMs: Presbyter John, Drebbel, and other APUG odds and ends From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 2/11/09 3:45 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich, Wolfgang, and all who are interested, here is a little more APUG data of possible interest: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #251 (11 FEB 2009, Vol. III): J.VS: P. Santino, Prester John, and other APUG odds and ends http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ************************************************** RE: VMs: Presbyter John, Drebbel, and other APUG odds and ends From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 2/11/09 6:12 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:46:14 +0000: " This one is definitely a reference to Kircher's correspondent Santinus: http://archimede.imss.fi.it/kircher/567/large/241r.jpg " Well that's progress then - one more datum in the Santinus file. Looks like Santinus was participating in some sort of experiment, but I am not sure yet. The dates need to be extracted. That's an odd way to write "2" if the letter was written 28 JAN 1629. Berj ********************************** RE: VMs:Presbyter John (new: Adam Schall / Johannes Schreck) From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 2/12/09 8:04 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Wolfgang Fritsch wrote 02-12-2009 10:08:32 AM: " You, Rich and perhaps some others on the list, may recall that I had previously advanced the name of the Jesuit Johannes Schreck ("spy" for the "eye of the lynx" academy founded by Federico Cesi). " Hello Wolfgang. Yes I remember well, and that initially you "threw in" the interesting Schreck as a "distraction". I myself didn't take it as a distraction at all, and I am guessing you yourself are becoming more curious about him as a potentially valuable VMS mine to work. This is consistent with my idea of the Voynich network-of-interest (NOI) which I see as extending in both space and time, and being mainly defined by interconnections which may prove useful in understanding some point or other of the overall Voynich mystery. Consequently, Hildegard of Bingen (12th c.) and Miss Nill (20th c.) are both members of the VMS NOI as far as I'm concerned: studying them may lead to important clues about the VMS mystery. The same applies to Drebbel, and thanks to you, Schreck. So for instance, here: http://ausstellungen.bibliothek.htwg-konstanz.de/china/03_johannes_schreck1.htm we learn that Schreck took the first telescope to China, a gift to him from Cradinal Borromeo. Now, that is surely a datum to note if one is among those who are seriously pursuing an east Asian language hypothesis of the VMS, while also taking seriously the possibility that the VMS astro pages may harbor precision astronomy, and while also able to ponder a 17th century origin of the VMS. Probably there aren't too many advanced VMS students fitting that description, but I believe I'm getting across my notions of VMS NOI with that example. So, it's less critical to me that Drebbel or Schreck at this stage are / are not highly attractive as potential VMS author, than their potential for clues to the actual author. And so therefore membership in the VMS NOI is a neutral matter, as I see it. " Shame there appears to be little interest. " Well, you are already changing that. Berj *************************************************** VMs: Sphinx manuscripts and Philibert dela Mare (1615-1687) to Kircher From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 2/13/09 5:43 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested I have some new possibly useful data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #252 (13 FEB 2009, Vol. III): J.VS: Sphinx manuscripts and Philibert dela Mare (1615-1687) http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm The thought is to get a handle on what counts as a "Sphinx" manuscript among the literati of the 17th century. Berj / KI3U ******************************************************* RE: VMs:Presbyter John (new: Adam Schall / Johannes Schreck) From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 2/13/09 4:49 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Bunny wrote 02-13-2009 10:27:25 AM: " I think you have read my theory or are you just psychic? " I don't know what your theory is. As for the NOI, there is no necessary paranormal implication. It can be thought of as a network on paper; a step up from that can contemplate a Jungian collective unconscious of archetypes ranging across space and time, or ideals per Plato, but again no paranormal aspects are needed. The word "network" of course implies action between the nodes, but in this case the nodes are usually passive (historical data), and the action between them is processed by the VMS student looking for useful connections. Berj ***************************************** RE: VMs: VMs; Presbyter John (new Adan Schall / Johannes Schreck From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 2/13/09 5:55 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Wolfgang Fritsch wrote 02-13-2009 11:33:08 AM: " ... see Joel Stevens contribution of today: ... " I saw it. Also I can imagine that a sharp-eyed and alert caveman might notice momentary optical magnification in a raindrop just after impact on a non-absorbing surface, and before surface tension begins to flatten it. Microscopy I think is taken to mean magnification sufficient to reveal details which cannot be resolved by the eye alone. If "resolved" is replaced with "noticed" then one can argue that cavemen may have been the first microscopists :) Berj *************************** VMs: Santinus check: Kedd's letter of 5 MAY 1635 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 2/14/09 5:51 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net It seems worth a check that Padre Santinus is mentioned in Kedd's letter to Kircher of 5 MAY 1635: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #253 (14 FEB 2009, Vol. II) : J.VS: Santinus in Kedd's letter of 5 MAY 1635 http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ******************************************************** RE: VMs: Santinus check: Kedd's letter of 5 MAY 1635 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/15/09 12:09 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote 02-14-2009 5:46:41 PM: " I think a reading 'Sandeus' is more probable. " The transcription is complicated by a glitch in Kedd's execution of the name, as well as superscript mark he adds to it. If it is "Sandeus" then one can hope to see "P. Sandeus" elsewhere in the Kircher correspondence, and unambiguously. It might also be "Sandirus". To this point I haven't yet recorded a Sandeus or Sandirus in my APUG notes though. But perhaps someone else has. " Kedd only comes into the story because he sometimes wrote to Kircher from Prague, but he never lived there and there is no reason to link him to the Marci circle. " However, Berck alias Kedd, is a strong reminder of the use of alias within Kircher's circle. Perhaps even Marci used an alias at times, accounting for the gaps in his correspondence with Kircher. Berj P.S. To correct my earlier mistake, the correct volume for J.VS comm. #253 is: Vol. III. ******************************************** RE: VMs: Santinus check: Kedd's letter of 5 MAY 1635 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/15/09 3:28 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene Zandbergen wrote 02-15-2009 2:57:11 AM: " There is also a Maximilian Sandaeus SJ, who lived in Cologne, and the next word in the letter could indeed read Colonia. " That looks good to me. I'd go with it: http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/s/s1/sandaeus_m.shtml " The previous find in Guldin's letter is interesting, (though not much for the Voynich MS), as it shows that Kircher must have known (at least heard of) Santinus already in 1629. " As I see it, one objective is to put pins on the map where Martinus Santinus is known to have been. On the assumption that Santinus met Baresch in person, in some place other than Rome or Prague, then the mapping may suggest places to look for traces of Baresch. Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: Re: Backdoor Analogy in Lost From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/15/09 5:50 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Sun 2/15/09 5:42 PM: " Memes do indeed move through the population... " Yes Don, canst thou send forth lightnings? Sorry, couldn't resist :) Berj ****************************** RE: VMs: Re: Backdoor Analogy in Lost From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/15/09 10:35 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Sun 2/15/09 9:48 PM: " How did you know? " Well, I haven't been to your great website in probably a couple of years Don, but I remembered of course. " Real twilight zone stuff :-) " Ok, don't say it wasn't you who brought that subject up :) - here we go: as we know there are anecdotes of VERY strange effects when lightning strikes close. One particularly amazing thing is momentarily being able to see through walls, or even mountains - at least that's what it seems like. I had a strong experience of that type once when my cabin in the forest took a direct hit and metal objects were vaporizing a few feet from my nose. Of course the first explanation must be psychological - I knew what it looked like on (or "through") the other side of the mountain. That particular hit incidentally was very fussy about its target, ignoring a rather high grounded vertical antenna very close to my cabin, and a smaller vertical on the cabin roof, while de-existing lots of much lower metal objects. Now, lightning seems to be absent from the VMS meteorological iconography. Arguably we have clouds, rain, and a rainbow, but not much that one could argue represents a lightning bolt. It's a shame that there are obviously removed (by cutting) pages in the manuscript. Perhaps one them showed some lightning. Berj *************************************** RE: VMs: Re: Backdoor Analogy in Lost From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 2/15/09 11:52 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Sun 2/15/09 11:34 PM: " It's possible that extremely close hits may influence the optical and other nerves directly. There are experiments done with magnetic field stimulation showing these effects. Magnetic fields around lightning are strong. Haven't heard about these effects before, though. TThe strike also causes a lot of retinal aftereffects. " r Don. There were definite pre-effects: for at least 15 seconds prior I could sense a close strike coming any moment. After-effects were quite normal, beginning with the initial "Holy ****!" and immediately grabbing a flashlight and running to check on my parents in the next building as I thought that was the building which had been struck - only later did I realize I was at ground zero, and not until morning the full picture. Berj ******************************** RE: VMs: Re: Backdoor Analogy in Lost From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 2/16/09 12:11 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Mon 2/16/09 12:03 AM: " Hope you did not see through walls pre-discharge " No. Twilight Zone came with the strike, not before. Berj ************************** RE: VMs: Maier used vellum, also... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 2/18/09 5:43 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich Santa-Coloma wrote 02-18-2009 11:13:51 AM: " Look, for instance, at these illustrations from Atalanta Fugiens: ...... http://www.santa-coloma.net/voynich_drebbel/general/atalanta_page121_king.png " Hello Rich. That looks to me like an ordinary Schwitzkasten, a kind of western version of sweat-lodge. I don't understand what is allegorical with it. As for parchment availability, I've never considered it a serious arguement against the VMS being produced anytime anywhere. That does not distract from the interestingness of your demonstrations of parchment usage in the 17th century. Berj **************************************** Subject RE: VMs: Maier used vellum, also... Sent Date 02-19-2009 10:53:42 AM From Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To François Jurain wrote Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:01:23 +0100: " if I remember well, the picture illustrates the accompanying text, to wit, how "king Duenech, swollen by bile, was cured by repeatedly sitting in the Laconian bath". It is allegorical in that the so-called "king Duenech" is actually a mineral compound. What the picture really tries to represent is what happens inside the crucible, in the course of an alchemical operation. " Hello Francois Yes I had guessed something similar: red mercury oxide powder being "sweated" to result in silvery mercury, but I dropped it because I thought the king's crown suggested gold. If it were not for the fellow in the box wearing a crown, the whole thing seems rather ordinary, in contrast to the other picture with the four overlapping spheres above the lake. Do you know what the mineral compound King Duenech is? Berj **************************** RE: VMs: Maier used vellum, also... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 2/19/09 8:43 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net François Jurain wrote Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:57:05 +0100: " Well then, you do know in what way the emblem is allegorical... " No specific idea. Generally it seems to suggest "purification", but we hardly need an elaborate illustration to tell us that about alchemy. Your oak-related compounds idea is interesting. Berj ****************** RE: VMs: Harriot From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U (ki3u@hotmail.com) Sent: Mon 2/23/09 4:42 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Wolfgang Fritsch wrote Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:25:26 +0100: " Yeah, as if we didn't already have enough of those ..... From Hildegard von Bingen to Wilfred / Miss Nill. And - of course - there's also "my" Johannes Schreck (tongue in cheek). " Yes Wolfgang, schrecklich isn't it?! :) Berj ******************************************** RE: VMs: Harriot From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U (ki3u@hotmail.com) Sent: Mon 2/23/09 10:09 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Joel Stevens wrote 02-23-2009 1:10:43 PM: " I understand your point, but if we overlook a single candidate, we risk missing an oppurtunity to fully understand the VMS. " Well Joel, I don't think I understand your point. My "point" was to poke a little lighthearted fun, with a play on words, back at Wolfgang, upon my perception that his post contained, aside all else, a little lighthearted poke at a recent post of mine, a serious post as it was. I had no thoughts of overlooking any potential VMS-relevant candidate, much less Harriot, who long ago was placed firmly into my VMS NOI by Jeff Haley's extensive VMS-Harriot work. Berj ******************* RE: VMs: The "Fact" of Vellum cost? From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 3/26/09 11:53 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Robert Bub wrote Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:38:07 -0500: " It seems to me that the best way to determine the approximate cost of the vellum used in the VMS is to examine the surviving accounting ledgers of businesses, government and churches that would likely have ordered or made vellum during that time period. That is assuming such ledgers can be found. " It would also seem of interest to find out more what the cost of used parchment was "back then". Used parchment could be reclaimed, for example by scraping the writing etc. off of it. Then there is the back-then-cost versus quality of parchment: many VMS folio leaves look like they were far from top-grade stuff when the VMS author began using them, closer to the rag end of parchment grades. In f34 r&v, and the f46v (Eagle / gold-particle folio) we can get the impression that the illustrations were so drawn as to take into account pre-existing parchment flaws. It is though conceivable that some flaws were intentionally introduced, especially with f46; or at least a pre-existing flaw there was mitigated by ovalizing it. However, with f89r1, f89v1, f89r2, f99r, and f99v, it seems pretty certain that the VMS author is working around pre-existing flaws: the tears show repairs, with the laces now missing, and the text is definitely avoiding the tears. As far as I am aware it is only opinion, not yet scientifically demonstrated, that the VMS parchments are "vellum". And I know of no proof that virgin parchments for all the VMS folios were used by the VMS author to produce his / her manuscript. Berj / KI3U ******************************** RE: VMs: Allegorical Fountain of Knowledge, 1634 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 4/10/09 1:56 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Regarding Typus mundi Francois Jurain wrote Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:13:58 +0200 " I found the whole series (34 large jpeg's) online: http://agriculturaceleste.blogspot.com/2005/06/typus-mundi.html http://emblems.let.uu.nl/tm1627_introduction.html " Interestingly, the introduction website states: " This is our edition of Typus mundi of 1627. In this introduction, we have limited ourselves to the essentials. About Nine Lecturers of the Antwerp Jesuit College The titlepage of the Typus mundi says: RR.C.S.I.A. These initials represent 'Rhetoribus Collegij Societatis Iesv Antuerp'1, the Jesuit Order of Antwerp. The book has been composed by senior students of the class of Humanities. Each of them created three or four emblems, including a long Latin poem and short poems in French and Dutch. The names of the students are mentioned after the thirty second and last emblem: Egidius Tellier, Balthasar Gallaeus, Gerardus van Rheyden, Ioannes Waerenborch, Ioannes Moretus, Ioannes Tissu, Nicolaus Coldenhoue, Philippus Helman and Philippus Fruytiers; people of whom we do not know much. At the time Jean Matthiae (1601-1669) was their professor of rhetoric. Such a way of teaching was normal within the Jesuit colleges. ....... " The place being Antwerp, it would seem likely that Ioannes Moretus is a relation of our Voynich-specific Fr. Theodorus Moretus, S.J. I'm not clear yet about the 1627 and 1697 dates, but if 1627 is correct for the original publication of Typus mundi then Ioannes and Theodorus would have been contemporaries. In any case, digging into Ioannes may lead to more on Theodorus. I wonder if it is possible to find out which of the emblems in Typus mundi were created by Ioannes Moretus. Berj / KI3U ****************************************** VMs: New additional VMS-associated pictures from Beinecke From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 4/19/09 6:29 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Beinecke has added some materials, pictures of a letter from Wilfrid Voynich and more, to the Voynich MS-408 online offerings: http://webtext.library.yale.edu/beinflat/pre1600.ms408.htm The new matter starts off with a good color picture of Marci's critical letter. Berj / KI3U ********************************** RE: VMs: 1 Soho Square From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 4/19/09 7:50 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana Scott wrote Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:22:39 -0600: " Wilfrid Voynich once set up his antiquarian establishment at 1 Soho Square, London. He seems to have a penchant of choosing offices near parks. " Nice old building. Didn't the Voynich's, or at least Ethel, live for a while on a farm in upstate New York? I wonder if we can find a google Earth image of it. Maybe they buried "the secret of the VMS" there :-) Incidentally, wrt my earlier post, that letter seems to be from Ethel on Wilfrid's stationery. Berj ************************ RE: VMs: New additional VMS-associated pictures from Beinecke From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 4/19/09 11:02 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:10:21 +0000: " It is good to have the original of Ethel Voynich's statement about the provenance of the manuscript. " We should probably, just to cross every t and dot every i, compare the hands in that 1930 provenance letter and its envelope with the known hands of Ethel Voynich, and Miss Nill, if this hasn't been done yet. I note a possible curiosity: in line 3 of the recto, my subjective reaction is that the opening bracket "(" was added after the "and was( in a castle ? )" had been written - the bracket almost contacts the s of the word "was", as if squeezed in. On the next line the "through whom he ap-" suddenly jumps upward very slightly. This brings to mind that old problem of Wilfrid telling Newbold he found the VMS in an Austrian castle. The hi-res image of Marci's letter now more than before inclines me to believe that the date, as originally written, was 1665. Of course it could have been an innocent error, with 1666 intended. Unfortunately we still cannot study the seal very well - a SID of the letter's other side is needed as well. Berj ***************************** RE: VMs: New additional VMS-associated pictures from Beinecke From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 4/20/09 3:32 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana Scott wrote Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:46:07 -0600: " The letter written on Wilfrid's letterhead was written by Ethel, based on a comparison to copies of other writing in her hand that I obtained from Beinecke. " r Dana tnx. I wonder if it may be useful to look at how Ethel's hand changed over the decades, and assess the date given in the letter. She dates her provenance letter July 19, 1930, which would be about four months after Wilfrid died. It indicates that Miss Nill opened the letter August 9, 1960 - on July 12, 1961 she sold the VMS to Kraus for whom she worked at least ten years. In Kraus's 1978 book in the VMS chapter he writes: "The library of the Collegium was sold to the Vatican but with the help of one Father Strickland, S.J., Voynich was able to buy a group of the most extraordinary manuscripts, now dispersed among American libraries." In her letter Ethel puts it just enough differently to be interesting: "It was the property of the Vatican ..... " And with this letter Ethel changes the original story of how Wilfrid obtained the VMS - he having told Newbold that the VMS was found in an Austrian castle. And Newbold published that while Wilfrid was still alive. Now, we've kicked this about a number of times - the peculiarities of not just changing the VMS's origin, but also the given reason (secrecy of the deal). So, cutting past that to what we can add from the new images of this letter: lets note that its envelope is not postmarked. It seems to me that if I was so concerned about an eventual accurate disclosure of the provenance of the VMS, especially when it changes previously publicized declarations, then I would mail the letter to myself, thus getting a postmark on it. Otherwise there is doubt as to when this provenance letter was actually created. Just four months after Wilfrid's death why does Ethel refer to the VMS as just "Cipher MS." and not "Roger Bacon Cipher MS." ? Wilfrid after all left this earth firmly believing that his manuscript was authored by Roger Bacon. As Ethel writes her letter, Wilfrid is dead and Strickland is dead, so they can be invoked without problems. Ethel writes that Wilfrid told her about the secrecy requirements "at the time", but the best she can do in pinpointing that time is "in or about 1911". On the envelope the writer (Ethel) gives instructions critically dependent on her identity, but does not identify herself. Quite some time ago Jan had this conjecture that Strickland, being English, and assuming he really was involved in getting the VMS into Wilfrid's hands, had something to do with motivating the fellow-Englishman Roger Bacon angle - an interesting idea. The new hi-resolution image of the Marci letter is interesting - have you looked at the paper - especially along the upper edge? Gives me the impression of fine cloth - is that ultra-high quality paper? Looks like it could have been machine-made. Berj ******************************* RE: VMs: New additional VMS-associated pictures from Beinecke From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 4/20/09 12:58 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:41:39 -0700: " to me the date error looks more like the problem "what was first - the egg or the chicken?" since even with the highest resolution and increased contrast I cannot establish if the original digit was really "6" there is missing the well rounded upper arch the other two sixes have. " r Jan. To my mind, a simple mistake is possible - just the other day I mistakenly wrote "2006" instead of "2009" - it seems I had been thinking quite a bit of events in 2006 when I made the error. I suppose we should also be on the lookout for info relating to whether it happened to be convenient for Kraus, an ex-Austrian, to have the VMS's provenance shift out of Austria. Berj ********************** RE: VMs: New additional VMS-associated pictures from Beinecke From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 4/20/09 8:27 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:47:10 -0700: " that's what I think: Marci (most likely himself) wrote the erroneous date and the scribe noticed it and corrected it before sending the letter out. I do not expect anybody did any correction at any time later, it is highly improbable and there is no apparent reason for it either. " It could just be a pure accident of the pen moving across the paper when it was not intended to be writing: take a look at the "9" of the "19 Augusti" - at the bottom end of the 9's descender there appears another extraneous stroke. So similarly, conceivably the problem strokes with the "5" of the 1665 are not even an error, but just a simple accident of the pen depositing some more ink as it was being moved off and away from that part of the paper by an old shaky hand. Or something like that. This new high-res picture of Marci's letter is great - I had never before noticed the descender of the "9". " On the other hand, while the upper arch of "original" 6 is not visible, it would be surely stressed by the corrector, so it really looks like "stronger" 5 is the correct final number, namely because it is also written with higher pressure. " Yes I agree - that's one of the strongest arguments for that digit being intended to be a 5. " But then again if Marci wrote his famous letter on 19th August 1665 and not on 19th August 1666, he would have to wait more than year to query about it via Kinner's letter ( 5th January 1667) which seems a rather long time. The five months (the other case) looks more reasonable. Last but not least, Kinner's letter actually PROVES Marci sent the VM to Kircher in 1667 ( "...that book which he sent via the Father Provincial last year", as per translation by Philip Neal). ........... The trip might have been delayed and while written in 1665, the letter could have been sent, with the VM, in 1666 (especially if Marci planned to send it sooner but nobody travelled there earlier than fether Provincial ). " Not impossible, but I have a hard time believing that after decades of regular correspondence, which often included exchanging books, Marci had to wait a year to get this one to Kircher. So we still have the same problem of reconciling the last letter of Marci to Kircher, with Kinner's 5 JAN 1667 letter to Kircher. I went back and found my vms-list post on this from last December [1] and I'll borrow from it now, and lets also in the following accept 1665 for Marci's last letter to Kircher: 19 AUG 1665 letter of Marci to Kircher: THE last Marci letter, wherein he writes Kircher he has destined for Kircher (and is apparently sending herewith) a mysterious book, PLUS Marci is sending, definitely herewith, decipherment attempts by the former un-named owner. 4 JAN 1666 dated letter: Kinner, referring to Marci, writes Kircher (Philip Neal translation): " You will be the occasion of even greater joy if your craft and skill can uncover the interpretation of that arcane book which he gave up to you, and I would dearly like to know myself. " So far, so good - we know Marci got started in AUG 1665 sending a mysterious book to Kircher, and that Kinner on 4 JAN 1666 writes asking Kircher about it, but we do not know if Kinner knows on 4 JAN 1666 if Kircher has already received the actual book. Now comes the problem of a possible second mysterious book: 12 or 22 MAY 1666 Father Schott dies. 5 JAN 1667 dated letter: Kinner says he has not written to Kircher since Schott died; he tells Kircher (Philip Neal translation): " And now for other matters. Dominus Marcus has lost his memory of nearly everything but still remembers you. He very officially bids me salute you in his name and he wishes to know through me whether you have yet proved an Oedipus in solving that book which he sent via the Father Provincial last year and what mysteries you think it may contain. It will be a great solace to him if you are able to satisfy his curiosity on this point. " Both Kinner letters are dated very early in January: we've noted how easy it is in January to write in a date the previous year by force of habit. But here we can believe that the 5 JAN 1667 date of Kinner's letter is correct (i.e. it is NOT really 5 JAN 1666) because this is Kinner's first letter to Kircher since Fr. Schott died, in MAY 1666. Therefore, if Kinner is absolutely accurate in his 5 JAN 1667 statements, then as far as he knows, Marci sent to Kircher a mysterious book in 1666. So at the moment there seem to be two mysterious books which Marci sent to Kircher, that Kinner is aware of. But the tone of Kinner's comments in both letters suggests it is just one same book. Lets say Kinner really means only the one same book - how do we make the two-books problem go away? Perhaps the simplest way is to have Kinner, five days into the new year 1667, still thinking he is in 1666, and so the 1665 book sending becomes "last year". Another possibility is that Marci's book (if indeed sent herewith AUG 1665) reached Kircher in 1666, and Kinner became aware of that, also in 1666. So to Kinner, writing on 5 JAN 1667, the year of transport of the AUG 1665 book is: 1666. That is, Kinner is using as a transport reference-frame Kircher's year of receiving the book. To make this work, we need some confidence that Marci's book did not reach Kircher before 1 JAN 1666. And another possibility is that there were two sendings by Marci: the 19 AUG 1665 Marci letter was accompanied only by the former owner's notes, and separately Marci sent the actual book and it arrived in 1666 - and Kinner, by 5 JAN 1667, knows that. It seems to be possible to take advantage of the two-books problem toward a solution of another problem: a convincing resolution of the two-books problem could reinforce the belief that Kircher actually did receive the book Marci had destined for him on 19 AUG 1665. Incidentally Jan, lets note from Kinner's letters that it is quite apparent that Marci, nearing his end, has a deep attachment to the mysterious book he sent to Kircher. Berj [1] voynich.net vms-list post: RE: VMs: RE: VMs: Relationship of Baresch to Horczicky, by Berj / KI3U; 12-15-2008 10:02:37 PM. ************************************************ Subject VMs: Voynich's 1921 Philadelphia College of Physicians paper is online Sent Date 04-20-2009 11:23:47 PM From "Berj N. Ensanian KI3U" Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Some more good news, especially for VMS newcomers just starting out collecting resources: there is finally now online a copy of Wilfrid Voynich's 20 APR 1921 paper on the VMS he read to the Philadelphia College of Physicians, officially introducing the VMS. Voynich's paper was accompanied by a paper by Newbold, and this too is in the google books online offering: http://books.google.com/books?id=tNcCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA415&lpg=PA415&dq=A+Preliminary+Sketch+Of+The+History+Of+The++Roger+Bacon+Cipher+Manuscript+Voynich&source=bl&ots=NFcbuVSVdg&sig=r0vdU3qTecMk69o51mXW4qHgSDM&hl=en&ei=TCLtSbr-BYicMt7U7PQP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3 The entire College of Physicians of Philadelphia 1921 Third Series Volume 43 Transactions containing these papers can be downloaded from the above url as a pdf of about 14 Mb. These papers are critically important in serious VMS work. Berj / KI3U *********************** RE: VMs: New additional VMS-associated pictures from Beinecke From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 4/21/09 1:11 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Francois Jurain wrote Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:56:22 +0200: " could they have had an old style/new style conflict in Bohemia in the 1660s, just like there was in England from 1582 to 1752? Protestant countries may have delayed the shifting of New Year's Day from Apr. 1st to Jan. 1st, in addition to delaying the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar. " An interesting idea Francois. I don't know. I would think though that all the Jesuits would use the same calendar when writing to someone in Rome (Kircher), or at least indicate on their letters the calendar per Rome even if their local calendar was different. Berj ********************* RE: VMs: expectancy of groups for mediaval french From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 4/21/09 6:07 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Guy Thibault wrote Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:36:18 +0000: " If you want to have your 'pet' language tested simply point out two large body of text I can download (in text not html)... " Hello. It might be interesting to concatenate the text versions of your emails in this thread into one big text-file, and run the analysis on it, just to see what results. Berj ******************** RE: VMs: a cipher based on word grammar From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 4/22/09 9:51 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:28:13 -0700: " Here's a scheme for a possible device based on two rotating wheels ...... " That's a lot of rotating for a quarter million glyphs. Berj / KI3U *********************** RE: VMs: a cipher based on word grammar From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 4/22/09 10:40 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Joel Stevens wrote Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:17:56 -0400: " I suppose you could always pay someone to do the rotating for you... " Yes, or get the equivalent of "graduate student" to do it. This brings to mind Roger Bacon's rant against bungling and unscrupulous scribes / copyists back in his day. Berj ********************** VMs: Comparing 39 examples of Marci's signatures From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 4/23/09 9:21 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested, I have some data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 264 (Vol. III, 23 APR 2009) : J.VS: Thirty-nine examples of Joannes Marcus Marci's signature for comparisons http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U P.S. : The Archive of J.VS will soon be moving to a different host server. When we know what is what, we'll let all interested parties know. The J.VS Library will remain where it is. ******************************* VMs: Kinner and the last letters of Marci From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 4/25/09 5:35 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested I have another data zipfile: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #267 (Vol. III, 25 APR 2009) : J.VS: Did Godefridus Kinner write Marci's last two letters? http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U P.S. We've got our new host for the J.VS Archive figured out, and are now working on making a smooth transition. **************************************** RE: VMs: Kinner and the last letters of Marci From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 4/25/09 5:40 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote 04-25-2009 9:01:13 AM: " Kircher of course mentioned another book - and apparently nothing about the VM. " Jan, I'm wondering if when Kinner says (per Philip Neal translation): " Not long ago our mutual friend D Marcus passed on to me what you had recently written to him. Oh how you thrilled the old boy because you said his Philosophia had actually been read by you. It seems to suit the taste of few others. You will be the occasion of even greater joy if your craft and skill can uncover the interpretation of that arcane book which he gave up to you, and I would dearly like to know myself. " that it is unequivocal that Kinner is referring to two distinct books: Philosophia, and that arcane book. In other words, is it however possible that "that arcane book" means the Philosophia, and Kinner would dearly like to have Kircher's interpretation of the Philosophia? " Kircher's writing is very elegant while the scribbles in the VM are nothing like that. " Well actually Kircher is quite capable of quick and messy scribbling :-) - I'd have to dig into APUG a bit for examples, but they are there. " One thing is evident: the VM was sent to Italy at the end of 1665 (if we disregard those 4 days in January1666 when KInner's letter was written). " It's interesting that in his 4 JAN 1666 letter to Kircher, Kinner mentions Franciscus Baccon de Verulamio. " During past several years, we have seen on net several manuscripts that could be put together with Baresch's letter and claim they are the one he was talking about. " Yes, that continues to be THE problem. Berj ***************************************** RE: VMs: Kinner and the last letters of Marci From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 4/25/09 10:51 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:19:45 +0000: " Which of course is simply astounding to me... the fact that of all the gin joints he could have mentioned, he mentioned the book I suspect as the seed of the Voynich. What are the odds of that? The Voynich and the New Atlantis mentioned in the same, first VMs life, letter? " Well Rich, a bit of caution: Kinner is talking about a book, but is it actually Beinecke MS 408? We're not quite there yet. Perhaps if the tune is played again some, it will turn out so, but at the moment nobody, not even the saloon owner, knows where the critical letters are. Berj ***************************** RE: VMs: Kinner and the last letters of Marci From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 4/25/09 11:30 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:02:02 -0700: " One just wonder why we hear so little about him. " Yes, Godefridus Kinner seems to be absent also from the online 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. How all the more remarkable that he is now moving onto center stage of the drama of the world's most mysterious manuscript. Berj ***************************** RE: VMs: Kinner and the last letters of Marci From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 4/28/09 11:37 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote Tue 4/28/09 7:27 PM: " Are you saying that you think Beinecke 408A is in Kinner's handwriting? I do not think that they are remotely similar. " I am saying yes I take it as a serious possibility that Beinecke 408A came from a hand of Godefridus Kinner. " The lower case d in Beinecke 408A is particularly distinctive and I have kept an eye out for similar writing in the Kircher archive but never spotted any. " Agreed. Now, in Kinner's usual letters seen in APUG there is considerable variation in his "d", as can be seen for example in 562 APUG 12r (29 NOV 1662), and even right in the opening three greeting lines. Occasionally Kinner does come pretty close to the 408A distinctive "d", as for example in 562 APUG 151r (5 JAN 1667), the 10th line up from bottom, in the word "sed" near the right margin. That said, on the possibility that Kinner wrote the last two Marci letters, I know of nothing to rule out that Kinner had multiple "hands". His usual letters tell me he had calligraphic skills. So, Kinner may have possessed different hands useful for different purposes. He may have been ambidextrous - I know of no information that would rule that out. If we think about it, anyone can develop at least a second distinct hand, just by practicing switching physical hands for writing: in my case I am right-handed, but I can, slowly and awkwardly but perfectly legibly, write left-handed. Now if it were important to me to possess a second and distinctly different hand, then I'd make it a habit of routinely writing a sentence or two with my left hand, just so as to develop a flowing practice - then when needed, I would be ready to write more or less flowingly with my "other" hand. If Kinner did write the last two letters of Marci, then I suspect this is just what he did - switched physical hands, and the distinctive "d" in the last two Marci letters, with its charactersitic indented loop abruptly abbreviated at top end, is an indication of an ambidextrous switch. Perhaps also that is Kinner's other hand we see writing "Kinner", on the back of some of his letters, as we see by turning over 562 APUG 12r to 12v: that "Kinner" is quite different from the two renditions on the recto. So yes, this is theoretical, which is why J.VS comm. #267 is titled as a question, but I am taking the possibility quite seriously. If during the year and a half or so prior to Marci's death, Kinner was doing sort of secretarial work for Marci, then it seems to me quite reasonable that in cases where he was preparing a letter under Marci's name, that he would write it in a hand different from his normal personal hand, so as to create the letter in a "secretarial hand". Berj / KI3U ***************** VMs: The distinctive "d" in Marci's last two letters, and Theodorus Petraeus From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 4/30/09 9:44 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested in the distinctive d's in Marci's last two letters (briefly discussed here a couple of days ago), I have some data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #269 (Vol. III, 30 APR 2009): J.VS: Theodorus Petraeus and the distinctive "d" in Marci's last two letters http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ************************* RE: VMs: The distinctive "d" in Marci's last two letters, and Theodorus Petraeus From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 5/01/09 9:56 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote Fri 5/01/09 8:15 PM : " I frankly find it far-fetched that Kinner would disguise his handwriting for the purpose of writing down Marci's letters to Kircher while continuing his own correspondence with Kircher in his usual handwriting. What purpose would be served by the deception? " What deception? Who said anything about a deception? I conjectured that Kinner may have written Marci's last two letters for Marci, acting as the ailing and nearly-blind Marci's secretary: From J.VS comm. #267: " All this has me wondering if during Marci's decline, attended by increasing blindness and mental deterioration, Kinner sometimes acted as a kind of secretary to Marci, in particular with Marci's last two letters to Kircher that we have. We have long suspected that Marci's last two letters were not written by his hand - it is interesting to ponder if Kinner wrote for him. " From J.VS comm. #268: " It appears that Kinner may have been acting secretarially for Marci for a year before Marci's Sphynx ms letter was written - we could well imagine Kinner handling many of Marci's old papers. This seems to increase the likelihood that Kinner was aware of the identity of the former owner of the Sphynx manuscript - why doesn't Kinner ever mention the name to Kircher? A possible explanation is that Marci's mental condition is too far deteriorated to recall the former owner's name (M. Georgius Baresch ?), but that would also require Kinner never seeing Baresch's name on any of Baresch's decipherment attempts. " From 4/28/09 vms-list post, RE: VMs: Kinner and the last letters of Marci, : " If during the year and a half or so prior to Marci's death, Kinner was doing sort of secretarial work for Marci, then it seems to me quite reasonable that in cases where he was preparing a letter under Marci's name, that he would write it in a hand different from his normal personal hand, so as to create the letter in a "secretarial hand". " From J.VS comm. #269: " Are the patterns shown in Table 1 just coincidental, or indicative of conscious and intentional coding? If intentional, then there is a plausibility of mathematical consciousness behind the patterns - this is one of the stronger reasons for my seriously considering Godefridus Kinner as the secretarial writer of the MS 408A letter (as well as the 562 APUG 114 letter), he being a mathematician. " Who is to say that Kircher, himself capable of scripting a delta-d, was not familiar with different hands of Kinner? On the other hand, if Kinner was trying to deceive Kircher, that would make matters even more interesting, and might even partly explain Kircher's apparent lack of response on the Sphynx ms subject - that's a new angle to an old problem isn't it? - so, why so quickly dismiss the Kinner-as-scribe conjecture out-of-hand before it's been milked for all it is potentially worth. Presently I am serious in exploring the possibility that polymath Godefridus Kinner wrote those two letters for Marci, and the exploration is proving interesting - for example, it led to seeing patterns in the distribution of the delta-d's, and the idea that there may be a delta-d code riding atop the writing in the last two Marci letters. Crazy? Who cares - lets find out, and decide then. I did not get to those patterns by considering Theodorus Petraeus, even though he's a tiny bit potentially in the ballgame as an MS 408A scribe, I got to them because Kinner is a mathematician, and that suggests being on the lookout for mathematical consciousness being projected by the scribe of the last two Marci letters. And lets remember that Kinner entered the equation in the first place because he is the only known person who, apparently, seems to be acknowledging the existence of Beinecke MS 408A, and moreover, as Jan points out, doing it such where we can almost "feel" Kinner's curiosity. I may well discard these ideas at some point upon concluding that some or all do not stand up very well. But at the moment I do not know that they do not stand up well. One thing though is going to be harder to discard: the idea that the writer of Beinecke MS 408A and 562 APUG 114 was used to the Greek alphabet. Berj ********************************** Re: VMs: De Ziphras: 1600 cipher manuscript From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/02/09 1:53 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Sat 5/02/09 1:27 PM : " Found my notes! ....... De Ziphras, anonymous, circa 1600 ........ Scans of book from: http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/ljs/PageLevel/index.cfm?ManID=ljs423&page=1 http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/ljs/PageLevel/index.cfm?option=view&ManID=ljs423 " Interesting. Looks like on page 34 in the rhetoric cipher table he gives for cipher symbols a GC-e / EVA-l and also the gallows GC-h / EVA-k. Berj **************************** RE: VMs: De Ziphras: 1600 cipher manuscript From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/02/09 5:48 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Sat, 2 May 2009 09:45:31 -0700 : " Some of the symbols indeed look very familiar :-) " There's also a fair GC-k / EVA-t gallows in the table which appears on the continuation of the "Modo II" page which follows p. 79. It seems to pair the GC-k with "Treinta mil.", perhaps a number, I am not sure. Nice to see these in another old book. Of course as we learned from D'Imperio long ago, individual VMS glyphs are not at all uncommon across various types of old European writings. Berj ********************* RE: VMs: De Ziphras: 1600 cipher manuscript From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/02/09 9:13 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Sat, 2 May 2009 12:00:06 -0700 : " There is a treatment of the "Code of Zeluxia" ..... " Hello Julian. I wonder who or what is Zeluxia. " Fascinating stuff. " Material like this always makes me wonder about the motive behind publishing, or circulating it. Perhaps there are historical cases where crypto publications are really signposts placed for the herd to follow, while the really good techniques are kept secret and actually used for important communications. Berj ********************************** RE: VMs: De Ziphras: 1600 cipher manuscript From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 5/04/09 2:01 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dennis Stallings wrote Sun, 3 May 2009 21:44:35 -0400 : " Could you be more specific? The symbols I see don't bear the dramatic resemblance to Voynichese gallows that the gallows embellishments we've seen do. " Hi Dennis. I certainly agree. I meant in the sense of the tables in D'Imperio, for example her Figs. 39, and Fig. 42. I thought I was clear about this in my reply, in this thread, to Julian Bunn yesterday, but I might have been more clear. We've got Voynich-like glyphs here and there going back to ancient Greece, but if we had even one tiny scrap of Voynich SCRIPT outside the VMS and plausibly the Schall letter in APUG, we'd be have whole field of investigation in itself to plow. Do you ever get the feeling that one of these days an old, old bottle will come ashore somewhere, and inside will be a message, written in Voynichese? :-) Berj ************************* RE: VMs: De Ziphras: 1600 cipher manuscript From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 5/04/09 4:09 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Sun, 3 May 2009 20:30:28 -0700 : " Incidentally, there is also a 15th century Herbal in the Schoenberg collection, called "The Herbal of Dioscorides Pedanius, Isocrates and Galen" that contains many plants several of which have roots that are just as "wacky" looking as those in the VMs. E.g. ......... " Nice! The second picture even has Greek "GC-h" variation at upper left. Just to revisit an interesting 11th c. english herbal: MS. Ashmole 1431, Oxford Bodleian Library Ps. Apuleius, Herbal England, St. Augustine's abbey, Canterbury; 11th century, c. 1070-1100 Unfortunately the old link to its pictures no longer works. Hmm. Anyway, this particular Ashmole 1431 ms is the only one I've seen that gives me the feeling that the VMS botanicals illustrator may have seen it too, and borrowed directly from it. Here's some of my comments on it from 2006: " This is an 11th c. Herbal that might have possible source-book connections to some of the strange botanical illustrations in the VMS. This Herbal makes reference to Dioscoridis' classical Herbal. It has a fondness for the color blue in its plants. This Herbal's script also exhibits some forms that look like some of the Latin abbreviations forms in the 9RMS text. For a first quick look (note: 9RMS = VMS): fols. 7v-8r http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwm...0/00001418.jpg Here we see plants with leaves or flowers that appear like Christian crosses. The plant on the right on fol. 8r also has a root that appears almost like the headless body of a walking animal. Compare with the 9RMS page f90v plant. In f90v the 3-pronged bulbs just underneath the crystal-like crosses also resemble the flowers of the fol. 7v plant at bottom, which too has crosses. It is as if the design for the VMS f90v plant has been synthesized from ideas on MS. Ashmole 1431 fol. 7v-8r, plus some other elements from elsewhere - for its triangular green leaves. fols. 9v-10r One can get the impression that elements from these plants were used in the design of the 9RMS plant on f2r. fols. 21v-22r Compare the strange geometry of the Pericalis plant on f21v at bottom, with those in 9RMS pages f22r, f35v, f40r, f52r. fols. 29v-30r In fol. 30r on the right, compare the snakes in the roots of the bottom-right plant with 9RMS f49r. fols. 36v-37r Unfinished pages that may be useful in analysis of 9RMS page compositions. " I wonder where the online pictures of MS 1431 went to. Berj *********************************** RE: VMs: De Ziphras: 1600 cipher manuscript From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 5/04/09 1:47 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Ernest Lillie wrote Mon, 4 May 2009 00:18:25 -0500 : " After reading your messag! e, I checked my old link to Ashmole 1431 and found that it was still working fine for me. Just in case, I'll post it here: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/ashmole/1431.htm " Hi Ernest. Wonderful - thank you very much! It must be I plugged in some extra blank spaces into browser go-to window when I tried it earlier. Berj ************************** VMs: von Ardensdorff to Kircher: " quam etiam Doctor Marcus Scriptum habuit " From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 5/07/09 3:34 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested, I have some data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #274 (6 MAY 2009, Vol. III) : J.VS: Wenceslaus Ardensbach von Ardensdorff writes Athanasius Kircher, October 1668. http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ***************************************** RE: VMs: von Ardensdorff to Kircher: " quam etiam Doctor Marcus Scriptum habuit " From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 5/07/09 6:29 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote Thu, 7 May 2009 17:41:21 +0000 : " I offer a transcription and English translation of the relevant passage. ........ " That is impressive work - thank you! Concerning: " ..... my old teacher Doctor Marci, whose secretary I was for many years. " So here we have Ardensdorff identifying himself as a Marci secretary - this lets us compare Ardensdorff's hand with some of the handwriting variations in Marci's letters, notably of course the last two Marci letters. I have not had any chance yet to do any of this. Concerning: " He died in Prague, leaving the tincture to a certain friend, but in a poor state. And Doctor Marcus had this in writing and often mentioned it in my presence. " I wonder just exactly what it was that Marci had in writing. Is it merely the story of the alchemical monk which Ardensdorff is here recounting, or did Marci have in writing something else, perhaps the monk's tincture formula? Concerning: " Furthermore, Doctor Marci heard from his own Master Miseron, treasurer of the kingdom of Bohemia, that in his presence Ferdinand III King and Emperor of happy memory tinctured mercury into gold to the value of 40000 florins. " I assume Miseron is either Marci's father-in-law (Laura's father), or a relative of his father-in-law. This would revive interest in Marci's father-in-law as possibly involved in some way with the VMS. As for 40,000 florins alchemical, that is what - around 140 something kilograms of gold? This starts to sound like the modern day version of governments running money printing presses, in other words back then alchemy as a component of state economic policy, and whether or not the tinctures and powders really work is irrelevant, it is the story which counts. This has me wondering again about the 600 ducats legend in Marci's 19 AUG 1665/6 letter. " The friends of Marci's old age seem to have been linked by a shared interest in alchemy. It would be interesting to know if people like Ardensdorff and Dobrzensky also knew Barschius. " The links pop up all over as we look more and more: Jan just found off-J a reference showing that Cyprian Kinner and Ardensdorff had the same alma mater. And also there was in there a Georg Baer (Ursinus) but he seems to have graduated too early to be a possible incarnation of Baresch / Barschius. I haven't had any chance yet to look into all this. Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: von Ardensdorff to Kircher: " quam etiam Doctor Marcus Scriptum habuit " From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 5/08/09 2:42 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene Zandbergen wrote Fri, 8 May 2009 00:21:07 -0700 : " The interest for alchemy in Marci's circle can most probably be traced to Barschius. Barschius was 'well-versed' in alchemy, but not interested in making gold, but instead, in using it for medicinal purposes. Marci initially was not impressed by it, but he became convinced by seeing it bringing some good results. The same with Santini. This philosophy professor was against alchemy, but Marci also managed to 'turn him round'. This is clearly the influence of Barschius. Kircher should have been the next to be convinced (apparently Marci, Santini and others tried), but he seems not to have been. " Good morning Rene. Well undoubtedly Baresch / Barschius had some influence on whatever interest in alchemy Marci and his friends already may have had. I would distinguish between interest in, and being convinced of alchemical procedures as to their claims, be they making gold, or something akin to homeopathy. Also, Kircher was working down the hall from the Collegium Romanun's pharmacy laboratory, it being at least indirectly a significant component of the Jesuits' economic engine, and there may have been factors such as not-invented-here syndrome in Kircher's reactions to outsider medicinal preparations. From the physics books Marci wrote we can see he was a level-headed guy. Kircher too was an experimentalist. I should think they would need more than a story to be convinced that a tincture can change base metal into 40,000 florins worth of gold. I'd imagine back then most thinkers would be "interested" in alchemy in general, but not necessarily convinced of anything in particular: alchemy, being their version of chemistry at the time, was / is, if nothing else, a source of interesting ideas, even if often ideas to scoff at. Actually, who isn't interested in alchemy? Alchemy lives on: is not the modern idea of the collapse of the quantum wave function in the mind of the experimental physicist, a concept akin to alchemy? " WHether Marci's pupils would have knonwn Barschius depends on the latter's death date. My guess at the moment is around 1650, which would be a bit early. " Even so, it still amazes me that only Marci ever mentions Baresch's name. In the 19 AUG 1665/6 letter it is almost as if the name of the former owner of the Sphynx manuscript is one to know, but not to mention. And then also, why doesn't Godefridus Kinner mention Baresch when Kinner queries Kircher about Marci's mysterious book? Is it because mention of the name, Baresch or whoever, is associated with disgrace? Or something along the lines of an ongoing medicinal "patent dispute" ? " With respect to the tincture apparently in the possession of Marci, it is interesting to note that in the same letter, on the reverse of the first folio and immediately following the paragraph discussed here, the name of Sendivogius (who spent his last years in Silesia) appears. For me, that is by far the most intersting part of this letter. " Maybe Bobbie Pilette's current arrangements will find some traces of that tincture in the VMS's pigments :-) If Marci was convinced of alchemy, specifically a tincture able to transmute base metal into gold, when did he become conviced? From Godefridus Kinner's statements we take it that in the last couple of years of his life, Marci was losing his mind. Was it during this time of decline that Marci accepted alchemical transmutations as factual? My curiosity in this letter centers more on von Ardensdorff declaring himself a longtime secretary of Marci - that opens many investigational doors. Do we know of any other person unequivocally declaring themselves to have been Marci's secretary? Assuming Ardensdorff is not exaggerating in this, it seems then it is reasonable to ponder that Ardensdorff knew of Marci's Sphynx manuscript - thus he joins the growing list of folks back then, Moretus, Fathers Provincial etc. etc., who had knowledge of the Sphynx / Baresch / Prague manuscript. Yet strangely, we still have no comments / indications by any of them which indisputably identify the Sphynx manuscript as the Voynich Manuscript, Beinecke MS 408. Why? Is it because today we are keying too much on the unique VMS script as its critical identifying feature? That is, perhaps to them back then it was just another of the many esoteric symbols sets used in esoteric literature, many examples since lost and unknown, and our scriptomania over-emphasizes the VMS script's importance? Picking up D'Imperio's hint, I've pointed out that the VMS's nine rosettes foldout illustration is the book's visual and conceptions climax - yet it too is absent from the commentary on Marci's mysterious manusccript. " I do not see in this letter a very direct connection with the Voynich MS, but certainly interesting information concerning the 'circle' of people surrounding it. " Exactly what I've been saying - still no very direct connection with Beinecke MS 408 from anyone in that circle. But it's still early with this letter and where it will lead to. Isn't Ardensdorff in the beginning saying something about transcribing? It's a long letter and needs plenty of study. Berj ********************************** RE: VMs: von Ardensdorff to Kircher: " quam etiam Doctor Marcus Scriptum habuit " From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/09/09 1:15 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jeff Haley wrote Sat, 9 May 2009 00:38:37 +0100 : " Could it be that he had come into conflict with the Jesuits? The Jesuits did distance themselves from certain individuals. " Hi Jeff. That certainly is one of the stronger impressions that builds up after a while. I've even wondered if when Marci briefly praises Baresch in one of his books, forget which book at the moment but you know what I mean, that perhaps Marci is "defending" Baresch. " I am still convinced that the name Georg Barschius is an assumed name. The person we are interested in may well have been discussed in correspondence under his real name amongst this circle. " Yes absolutely, that's also very much a possibility. We already have the certain example of Berck alias Kedd. And, a big chunk of the active lives of the people we are interested in back then was during the Thirty Years War - it may well have been necessary to take on an alias, and so Baresch could be an alias. " I always come back to the fact that Barschius was over detailed in his letter to Kircher. Giving too many facts about his studies in Rome and elsewhere. Specifically the mention of exact dates. This seems to indicate the information was gleaned from documentation of some kind. Can anyone here remember the date they first attended university without reference to written documentation. Say 5th September 19XX? So why would Baresch have any better recall? " Excellent you point this out. I've been assuming he is signalling something to Kircher, maybe to say to Kircher go check me out in the records, but you take it one step higher. Good thought. By the way, you had some materials you were gathering to deposit into the J.VS Library. How about getting on with that and sending them to Greg. Berj ************************************************ RE: VMs: Adjacency From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/09/09 3:16 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net David Suter wrote Sat, 9 May 2009 10:24:47 -0400 : " ... the folios are, as we know, "out of order", but there may be (I would predict there actually is) a real reason for that. That is, part of the meaning of the VMs involves the adjacency of the folios or pages....because they are parts or sections of a larger PICTURE. " Hello David. I'll take the opportunity here provided by you, to once more point attention to the "nested shells" perspective of the VMS's gathering of folios: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #51 (Vol. I, 28 JUN 2007) : J.VS: Nested shells perspective of VMS physical construction http://www.geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolI2007.htm and the specific url to see the diagram of the VMS folios as nested shells, in the J.VS Library is: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/library/4-1-2007-06-27/ So yes, the idea that the gathering has a purpose behind it needs more exploration. Incidentally with tongue in cheek, I can't resist noting that with the current news from that somewhat hastily written "The New Journal" article, reporting that conservators are examining the VMS, perhaps they'll discover that Marci applied some of von Ardensdorff's mysterious monk's alchemical tincture to the VMS, and over the centuries little bits of gall ink became transmuted into those little gold particles we ponder are to be seen in the manuscript. And so, as California history has its Sutter's gold, VMS history may have its Suter's gold :-) Berj ****************************** RE: VMs: von Ardensdorff to Kircher: " quam etiam Doctor Marcus Scriptum habuit " From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/09/09 7:09 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene Zandbergen wrote Sat, 9 May 2009 11:11:33 -0700 : " I don't see any reason to believe this. To the contrary, in fact, his university record, when he was still a (relative) youth, is written in his name. " My understanding of Jeff's probing includes this scenario: there was a real original Georgius Baresch who matriculated at La Sapienza etc. Then, perhaps this real Baresch died, perhaps during an epidemic, or the Thirty Year's War, (or, for VMS conspiracy buffs, he was murdered to get his secrets), and then someone who knew this took on Baresch's identity. I suppose that to make this work, Marci would have to have been fooled too. Or be in on it - I doubt that. Is there readily available a photograph of the university record showing the Baresch entry, or at least an accurate transcription and description of the relevant details? Berj ************************* RE: VMs: Medieval Herbals online From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/09/09 8:02 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Ernest Lillie wrote Sat, 9 May 2009 13:37:38 -0500 : " Looking up the web address of the digital scan of Ashmole 1431 the other day for Berj reminded me of a few others that I've found as well. I've posted links to them here. ....... " Hi Ernest. Thanks for listing these - very useful indeed for VMS botanical work. Some of these books look familiar, and may have been discussed in earlier VMS literature. Perhaps Sarah Goslee and Dana Scott will comment on them. Concerning Ashmole 1462, fols. 39v-40r : reminiscent of several VMS botanicals, especially in the later sections of the VMS; compare for example with VMS f96v, and with a few others in the pharma section. " This last one, VLQ9, is dated to the later part of the 6th century and is one of the oldest surviving herbals and has an interesting feature. There are marginal notes scattered throughout from several different hands --- one of which appears to me very similar to the Voynich marginalia. The interesting feature that I spoke of is that many of the short, label-like entries within all begin with a character that looks like an EVA "K" on its side. I've always thought that whoever went through the Voynich manuscript and wrote the marginalia that we've all puzzled over probably did so in other manuscripts as well. Perhaps this is one of them --- perhaps not. Take a look and see for yourself. " I can see what you mean where at the top of the VLQ9 f049r (original ms f38r) the script-style of the notation to the left of "38" is reminiscent of the Voynich f116v writing (mchiton oladabas etc.). Of course if we found something resembling mchicon oladaba in this or another ms, things would become instantly electrified. Berj ************************************* RE: VMs: von Ardensdorff to Kircher: " quam etiam Doctor Marcus Scriptum habuit " From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 5/10/09 12:41 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene Zandbergen wrote Sat, 9 May 2009 16:10:54 -0700 : " Of the Prague one? Yes! I'll see if I have a photocopy, and if so I will scan it. " That is very welcome indeed. Berj ******************************* RE: VMs: Medieval Herbals online From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 5/10/09 1:37 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Ernest Lillie wrote Sat, 9 May 2009 18:21:51 -0500 : " In doing my own examination fo the marginal texts --- and in particular the F116v "key" text, I discovered that while the "Sacred Cow" of Wilfred Voynich's transcription as "MICHITON OLADABAS" is plausable, another reading was possible as well. ..... " Actually several different readings have been considered over the years. For instance, we might transcribe: opadabas or olasabas " I don't think it too much of a stretch to look at CHIRON as a possible reading of this string --- especially since the 3 figures along the F116v margin appear to me to be very similar to the Ashmole 18r illustration. ..... " Not bad I think, I like it. Lets give it a shot: an_chiron in other words we'll take the beginning of the group to be "an" followed by a space before the word "chiron". Well, if this is German, then we get: to_chiron and presumably something oladaba8 makes sense with that. I just can't think of anything immediately that works with German, nor Latin and Greek if we take "an" in those languages. To get something that works right away easy, we seem to be forced to anagram: oladabas anagramed to: alabados which means: devotional hymns. So we wind up with: devotional hymns to Chiron via quite a convoluted path, which is hardly thunderously convincing :-) Now as to the illustrations on the left margin of Voynich f116v, the lady turned to the left, and above her the animal walking left are no problem. The thing above the animal is more difficult, but after re-examining it periodically for years I've concluded that it most looks like a man with basically no shoulders to speak of, sitting on his buttocks, with his knees drawn up against his chest, and his arms wrapped around his legs just below the knees, and his head is turned a bit to his right, and his mouth is the hole in the parchment there, just above which is his nose, and he has big round eyes. Berj ******************************* RE: VMs: von Ardensdorff to Kircher: " quam etiam Doctor Marcus Scriptum habuit " From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 5/10/09 2:39 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Philip Neal wrote Sat, 9 May 2009 23:23:30 +0000 : " In his letter to Kircher, Ardensdorff notes that Kircher did not believe in transmutation and he is writing to try to persuade him otherwise at the urging of Kinner and others. Dobrzensky's one letter to Kircher is also about alchemy. There must be a suspicion that Kircher was not interested. If we had the other links in the web of correspondence between these people we might have an entirely different perspective on them. Alchemy was not a totally irrelevant issue until transmutation to gold was known to be impossible, which I imagine it hadn't quite in the seventeenth century. " Kircher not interested in general, or just not convinced of a specific alchemical issue? It is hard to believe that these guys are trying to convince Kircher that alchemical transmutation resulting in gold is a fact just by presenting Kircher stories as "evidence". I'd expect Kircher to say: show me - no need to make kilograms of gold, but just enough for me to do an Archimedes test. And if they keep coming back with just stories, then it is hardly surprising Kircher would rapidly lose interest. It would make more sense if they, including Kinner who is a mathematician and used to precision thinking, are trying to convince Kircher that it is a fact that Ferdinand III believed he had witnessed gold being made. And maybe the Sphynx manuscript is holding the secret, or something like that. " In answer to another thread I hold to my view that the manuscript is fifteenth century, and I note that every description of the manuscript by a professional palaeographer (there are at least three) takes it for granted that the thing is old. " I wouldn't myself take it for granted, but I do believe the VMS is old. As far as I know no paleographer has said something like, here see this 15th century script example which is essentially identical to the Voynich script, it is from the such-and-such monastery in northern Italy where the monks chanted to the herbs they were growing in their herb garden, and they employed this unique script to record their herb chants and music. The paleographers are taking highly educated guesses, but nevertheless guesses, because nobody has VMS-identical script examples from other documents. But no matter, we do not need paleographic inferences to make a safe guess, from the VMS's illustrations, in particular the clothing of the clothed human figures, that the manuscript projects the appearance of being 15th century. Projects the appearance. For what that's worth. " If a carbon dating proves it to be substantially younger I will accept that, but I think that the body of evidence that the manuscript is not a forgery by Voynich would still constitute a puzzle worth solving. " Well the arrangements reported in "The New Journal" will ultimately result in some sort of data, presumably eventually made public, but as to what firm conclusions can be drawn therefrom remains to be seen. In any case I'm not likely to accept any data as reliable unless it is essentially reproduced by a second and independent laboratory. But that's just me, and who cares. Berj ***************************** RE: VMs: 4o and gallows From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 5/11/09 5:47 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Mon, 11 May 2009 09:39:50 -0700 : " I have two questions: 1) In the Voyn_101 encoding, the symbol "4o" is two separate characters: "4" and "o". This seems wrong to me, as in the VMs the "4" and the "o" are nearly always joined together: it looks to be written as a single character, and should be defined as such in the transcription. I'd be interested to hear opinions on this, and what a character "4o" might indicate (is it an exotic Latin abbreviation?!). 2) There are several different gallows characters used. Some are composite, and appear to be a superposition of the gallows by a "cc" or other character. What might be the intent ... was that something that was done often in old manuscripts, writing one character on top of another? " These questions are considered in many past writings scattered across VMS literature, which admittedly is not always easy to search. But you just have to hang in there and keep digging up the past :-) Anyway, you can analyze the text with 4o as a unit, i.e. a single glyph, and again as two glyphs 4 and o, and try reach some conclusions on which seems the correct intent of the VMS writer. Well, you guess it: you can get conflicting indications depending on the analysis scheme. My most recent attention on all this is recorded in J.VS Volume II communications #166, 170, 172, and #203 where I devote a small chapter to the problem: " VII. REVERSE-DIRECTION TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOYNICH f68v3.1 TEXT SERIES WITH "4o" AS A SINGLE ELEMENT " which concludes with: " Overall, we might consider that when having some almost-but-not-quite-working-problem in symbols-based deciphering attacks on VMS text series containing 4o groups, that if the spectral changes resulting from changing the 4o-digraph to the 4-unigraph was a spectrally mild change, as for example with GC-4ohoe, then it might be worth a try to see if the deciphering attack improves. " and there is another brief on it in the " XIII. COMMENTS ". And then we pick up the ball again in comm. #207, and in #210 (note errata in #211) we have a little chapter: " V. EFFECT OF TRANSCRIPTION CHANGES ON THE W31-1 WAVE: GC-4o, GC-n, and GC-C " where we read this: " Assuming that W31-1 is valid, then this might be taken as evidence in favor of the hypothesis that transcribing "4o" traditionally as a digraph, is correct, at least with f111r. Unfortunately there are no GC-m (EVA-iin) glyphs in the 6 groups, so we cannot use this line of thinking to probe Glen Claston's transcription theory / policy with respect to that famous VMS text problem. However, we have something almost as good: ..... " and in the concluding comments: " Pursuing a study of the nature of this f111r text organization, especially as to whether or not it was built-in by design, we identified ten arcs of ten waves in the f111r sequence-spectrum space. Most important among these arcs is the so-denoted W31-1 wave, which is a perfect full-cycle sinewave, that is also saturated with prime numbers relationships. We used the assumption of this wave having been built by design into the f111r text, to determine plausible evidence for or against some old Voynich text problem assumptions. And the results were, that if the W31-1 wave is valid as found, then it waves in favor of GC-4o being transcribed as a digraph, as has been traditional, and also in favor of some of Glen Claston's controversial Voynich manuscript transcription rules. " As for the "intruding" gallows, usually intruding on the c~c glyph (GC-1 / EVA-ch) we do see intruding forms in old documents, but usually nothing as spectacular as in the VMS. Again, there is tons of commentary on this in previous literature. I suppose that for effective literature searching your first task is to get hold of the vocabulary - the older term for the gallows glyphs is "tall looped symbols" as seen in D'Imperio. What we mean today when we say "intruding gallows" would have been in earlier days: compound forms involving looped symbols. If I remember right, the "gallows" and "intruding gallows" terminology began in the early days of the vms-list and was introduced by Jacques Guy. Berj / KI3U **************************** RE: VMs: 4o and gallows From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 5/11/09 10:34 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana Scott wrote Mon, 11 May 2009 14:03:11 -0600 : " You may also find each separately, 4 and o, and q and u. I do not recall that the 4o is written using just two strokes of the pen, one for the down stroke and one to complete the 4o. I believe that each is scripted separately and conjoined. " Hi Dana. Just for newcomers, a quick example of a separated 4 and o in the 4o combination is seen in f68r1 (one of Robert's favorite pages), 3rd word in on the second line. Another cutie is the connected GC-4c seen in f68v3, 4th word in, second line. Julian Bunn wrote Mon 5/11/09 7:49 PM : " .... the elder statesmen here, ... " Well I'm now ten years into it, more than some, less than others. " Since the VMs symbols are generally so meticulously written, and separated, I'll defend my position that the "4o" is a single symbol. " I don't think they are everywhere in the text corpus meticulously written and separated. Check out this "4o" in f75r, last line, 2nd word in. You need the high-res SID's to notice all these things. That one by the way makes a good candidate for studying the problem Dana brings up - number of strokes and connectedness with the "4o". This same f75r page also shows one of those GC-4c examples - right side column 3rd line and 3rd or 4th word in. Also f75r shows a "4o" connecting to the GC-1 on the line below it - in the paragraph splitting the illustration, the 3rd words in lines 4 and 5. And do check out the descender of the 4 of a 4c continuing right on through the center of the o in the line underneath it - first word in the body of the text. And take a very close look at the f77v 3rd-last and 2nd-last lines, where the GC-4oham connects with the GC-4ohae underneath - look at the strokes there - that's no accident, the upper GC-4 and the lower GC-h are intended to be connected - the scribe is making sure. " As for the "intruding" gallows on the "cc" glyph, it looks to me more like the "cc" glyph is intruding on the gallows, e.g. as if the gallows character is being fine-tuned in meaning by the addition of the "cc" glyph. " Check out the intruding / intruded-upon cc gizmo in f18r, line 3, 3rd word in: looks a bit like a cross. Fine-tuned, or a distinct glyph ruining the 17 basic glyphs convention? Here's the 4 and o connected by a double-horizontal - f115r, 16th line up from the bottom, 7th word. And on and on and on like this across the VMS text. For every proposed pattern it seems we can find oddballs and counter-examples. Determining a solid transcription glyphs set is one of the oldest VMS problems. " I have in mind the addition of a bar to Planck's constant "h" which indicates division by two pi! " Yes, that's a natural reaction by physicists to these kinds of glyphs. The meaning of intruding glyphs in the VMS remains an unsolved problem. Berj ************************** RE: VMs: 4o and gallows From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 5/12/09 2:40 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Mon, 11 May 2009 18:11:54 -0700 : " I agree that the example of "4o" you point to on f68r1 is separated, but I don't see any separation in the examples you have on f75r and f77v. " Hi again Julian. Take another very close look (use the Lizardtech tools to convert the SID to the tif if necessary) at the f75r last line second group's 4o : you'll see that there is a definite gap in the horizontal separating the 4 and the o. It's a tiny gap. In my view, what weighs in favor of this gap being a pen-lift rather than some ink lost there over the centuries of wear and tear, is the abruptness with which the 4's horizontal ends as it approaches the o just before reaching it. Then after the little gap the o starts with a slightly upward slanting stroke, and dense inking. If we want to consider parchment stretchings causing the gap, then we have to set up a reference for "random" parchment stretchings, and see if gaps like these fit that idea, rather than being notably between the 4's and o's. I think many of these tiny details are original with the scribe. These tiny controls speak for a woman scribe it seems to me. One way I've used to study this is to look over my own handwriting samples: I note which letters I ligature in various words, and how the definite gaps between non-ligatured adjacent letters vary in size. And for sure sometimes adjacent letters appear connected when the norm is that I do not connect or ligature them when writing such and such word cursively. In any case I was here more interested in showing that these glyphs are not always meticulously written, if I understood you correctly that, say, the 4o which starts the second word (GC-4ohc89) on the second line of f78r, is a meticulous 4o, written so as to appear like a unigraph. " In the case of the 4o symbol touching the gallows on the line below (in f77v), this looks accidental to me, and I'm not sure why you think it is a deliberate join? " The scribe is abruptly lifting the lower GC-h upward to meet the GC-4o on the line above: hence my impression is that the scribe wants the loop of the GC-h to meet, above it, the o of the 4o. " The existence of cases where a symbol "4" and a symbol "o" appear next to, and separate from, one another does not exclude there being a "4o", symbol of course :-) " Of course, agreed. This is why I say that depending on the analysis scheme, we can develop indications one way or the other. The VMS being the complex gadget it is, I'd expect the author to employ 4o as a digraph here, and a pair of unigraphs there. Also, by way of caution as I say from time to time, we are analyzing not the VMS parchment itself, unfortunately, but the SID images of it. Berj ******************************** RE: VMs: 4o and gallows From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 5/12/09 2:46 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana Scott wrote Mon, 11 May 2009 19:30:34 -0600 : " Notice how it took four strokes to make the 40 in f68r1... " r Dana - that's basically what I'm seeing there too. Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: 4o and gallows From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 5/12/09 1:29 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Mon, 11 May 2009 20:41:07 -0700 : " By the way, does anyone have for download a zipped file of all the high res images (saving the trouble of going through and downloading each in turn)? " I would say Dennis Stallings is the VMS longbeard to consult on mechanisms for obtaining all the SID's in one bunch while respecting any Copyright issues. He has webpages with many details on this - I'm not sure this morning what their current url is, but it will surface shortly I'm sure. Also VMS longbeard GC has at Voynich Central all kinds of prepared high-res pictures. Berj ********************** RE: VMs: Medieval Herbals online From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 5/12/09 8:58 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Ernest Lillie wrote Tue, 12 May 2009 15:06:17 -0500 : " I find several documents with very similar "S" characters and several that mix both the "Alpha" and "Beta" versions of the "S" within the same word. " Hi Ernest. Yes mixing forms is common in the old docs, even in today's handwritings. I'm not committed to it being even a letter "S". Maybe it is a numeral "8". Because, upon the old conjecture that someone, not the VMS author but a would-be decipherer wrote this while attempting decipherment, perhaps he was counting letters, and after the 7 letters of oladaba, wanted to indicate a "missing" or expected 8th letter. Or something like that. Equally un-impossible, maybe it is a numeral being used in some phonetic way, as say in modern English: calcul8 for calculate The thing is, I allow for the VMS author to have ranged very wide indeed in what he / she was up to. So, is it just an accident that we see "o8" in the f116v parchment hole to the left of the michiton oladabas text-line, or is the intent a little window featuring an o and the 8 as symbols of significance in this neighborhood of the manuscript? " I guess I'm not too comfortable with the idea of haphazard anagramming. I lean more towards a little used compound or local dialect word. " Well, of course there's "haphazard" anagramming and systematic anagramming (e.g. Christine de Pizan's anagrams), and I'm open to both, because it is the VMS author's book, or the f116v writer's writing, and until I know for sure what they did there, I have to allow that they did whatever they wanted, unconcerned about my personal preferences centuries later :-) " I can see what you mean about a human figure sitting there, although the head does seem pretty stretched out if that's what it is. If such figure were the case, it would be in keepingwith several medical texts whuch show a crouched down sick person --- in much the same position. " I hadn't thought of that! Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall seeing such in some old medical text, not sure where though - have you got a pointer? " I find it interesting that ANCHIRON in german is the choice you went with. " I was looking for an excuse to try that, as coincidentally I was working again on michiton oladabas, and suddenly you were there with chiron, while I had been trying and failing with chicon salad :), and so I jumped at the chance to try chiron. I still like it. Too bad the f116v pony isn't a centaur. Berj ************************ VMs: Another Marci letter, maybe: 557 APUG 67 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U (ki3u@hotmail.com) Sent: Wed 5/13/09 5:41 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #275 (Vol. III, 13 MAY 2009) : J.VS: Do we have another Marci letter: 557 APUG 67 ? http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ************************* RE: VMs: Another Marci letter, maybe: 557 APUG 67 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 5/13/09 1:56 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Wed, 13 May 2009 11:55:35 +0000 : " That is probably a Drebbel or Santorio (Santori) thermoscope. A fluid in a basin and in a tube. It was held in the tube by the vacuum formed by the water's weight pulling down on the trapped air. ....... " Hi Rich. I was indeed looking for Drebel's name in there, but just couldn't make anything out. I can see what appears to be "Humidum" in line 24. Perhaps there are keywords and diagram labelings which will link to Drebel's and / or Santorio's works. Berj ************************ RE: VMs: Another Marci letter, maybe: 557 APUG 67 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 5/13/09 2:54 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net On the 7th line up from the bottom of the text main body there may be: "magia globus" or "imagia globus" Berj *********************** RE: VMs: Another Marci letter, maybe: 557 APUG 67 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 5/13/09 10:58 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net I think Marci is using a little Greek in this letter, which he does only rarely in a couple of his other APUG letters, for example in his 25 JAN 1642 letter: 557 APUG 82. That letter has a couple of technical diagrams, one of them similar to the hydraulic diagram in this 557 APUG 67 letter. The 82 letter has mention of Count Bernardus, a not-infrequent guest in Marci's letters, and always a guy to keep an eye on. Berj *********************** RE: VMs: Barschius graduation 1602 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 5/14/09 2:04 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jeff Haley wrote Thu, 14 May 2009 11:32:48 +0100 : " The first graduate of interest is Joannes Baptista Spinellus. In attendance at this 1602 graduation was Philippo Spinello, papal nuncio to pope Clement VIII. This must have been because Joannes was a relative of the nuncio. There was an artist called Giovanni Battista Spinelli who died during an alchemical experiment though I have no proof as yet that the two are the same person. " Hi Jeff. It would be interesting to learn more about that fatal alchemical experiment. " The second graduate is Joannes Sarkander. " If I understand this correctly, then our Georgius Baresch was a schoolmate of a future martyr saint: Sarkander / Sarcander. This playing out as the Thirty Years War is getting underway. Perhaps there is a connection with Marci seemingly "defending" Baresch. Berj *************** RE: VMs: Trigraphs, Digraphs and Codes From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/16/09 5:15 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Sat, 16 May 2009 09:59:25 -0700 : " I'd welcome comments, and especially opinions on, or reasons, why the hypothesis may be flawed. " Hi Julian. How are we going to know it is / is not flawed until you exhibit some sentences we can read? It's another great idea, the idea itself seems to me not intrinsically flawed, but specific to the VMS does it produce a code table that allows something that can be read, if only a couple of sentences from different parts of the VMS text? Berj ********************* RE: VMs: Trigraphs, Digraphs and Codes From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 5/16/09 7:12 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Sat, 16 May 2009 11:53:25 -0700 : " For example, "qua", "quo" and "qui" are frequent trigraphs in Latin, and a group of very frequent VMs pieces that are similar is "40ham", "4ohan" and "4ohC" ... so that is a suggestive match. " It looks like you could save some time by looking over EVA transcriptions rather than just working with GC. As I understand it, when Zandbergen and Landini designed EVA: http://www.voynich.nu/extra/eva.html they had in mind something quite similar to your above: transcribing so as to hopefully detect Latin n-graphs. I think I read that somewhere ages ago about how and why they went about their design, but at the moment can't find the url. Berj **************** RE: VMs: A hypothetical code theme... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 5/17/09 1:01 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Richard SantaColoma wrote Sun, 17 May 2009 00:32:23 +0000 : " The beauty of this code is that any one group... let's take QUA as an example, can be encoded several ways. It would not necessary appear the same way enough times to make a comparison to a VMs count. " Hi Rich. Ok, sounds ok to me. I'd have to think about it a while though with real motivation, but preliminarily it seems to me that as long as the mappings are finite, in other words the code table is finite, plus the encoded text is a big enough sample, that there would be a chance to detect some patterns in the final result which reflect the input. In any case it would be useful to see some attempted sentences from the VMS. Incidentally, I tried a multiple mappings scheme which reminds me of this a couple of years ago, and ran it by Greg, and he basically yawned, and now I can't even remember why he wasn't enthralled by it :) Of course one tiny twist of a difference with your system could make all the difference between a yawner and a breakthrough. Berj ********************** RE: VMs: A hypothetical code theme... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 5/17/09 11:41 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Knox wrote Sun, 17 May 2009 17:45:10 -0500 : " Knox alias: noxmix nox mix --> 6278 5816& no x m ix --> 298 20 13 83& no xm ix --> 298 433 83& n oxm ix --> 14 2197 83& etc. " Lets just try something: input sequence, sequence-spectrum, hh-spectrum 62785816&, 123454617, 123455667 14219783&, 123145678, 123345678 29843383&, 123455356, 123455556 298201383&, 1231456367, 1233456667 It looks like the first and third versions are the "closest neighbors" in hh-spectrum space (the purpose of which is to gauge elementary invariances in sequences). Who would have guessed that! Well, please forgive my indulgence for concatenating the groups delimited by "&", but I'm still misunderstanding what I am misunderstanding in these discussions, and probably will continue so until someone exhibits a couple of VMS text-lines linked step-by-step (i.e. idiot-proof for me) to some input text, regardless if the input groups make any sense or not. Berj ****************************** RE: VMs: A hypothetical code theme... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U (ki3u@hotmail.com) Sent: Mon 5/18/09 3:00 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Knox wrote Sun, 17 May 2009 22:42:19 -0500 : " If you are wondering where I got the numbers, I assigned them to increasing alpha characters, vowels first, using a short alphabet as in the jpg's. ........ " Hi Knox. Well I'm not going to pretend I understand it yet, beyond the essential ideas of semi-random parsing of the input letters plain-text sequence into sub-sequences, which are then coupled with a multiple-choices code-table which simultaneously transforms the letters sub-sequences into numbers sequences of not necessarily the same length; and of course that's not new but it's the additional twists built into the final system which determine yawner versus enthraller, a final system which is at least approximately Voynich text relevant. And to amplify why I think I do not understand it yet, is that I have not yet seen expressed a mechanism for ensuring that the final output super-sequence (i.e. the Voynich text) exhibits an average "word" length of around 5 Voynich glyphs. Maybe you guys have that mechanism already built-in and I'm just not getting it - this is what I mean when I say in all seriousness that for a guy like me these complicated schemes require idiot-proof presentation. But of course who cares if this particular idiot gets it or not :-) " If we elaborate to make it stronger we will spend too much time and make mistakes. " Right. " That doesn't mean someone didn't elaborate on it. " Agreed - it's the VMS author's creation, and they did what they wanted without consulting us as to what we would prefer. However, all this brings back to my mind a major preliminary question: did the VMS author intend his / her text to be read by a random person coming upon it, say a random person in the distant future, a person "worthy" in the eyes of the VMS author to read the text? Well, if the answer is no, and the intended readers were non-random members of a close-knit society, then the VNS text could be designed toward the one-time code-table end of things, with the non-random readers in possession of the code table, that being a separate item from the VMS which today we do not have, unless it just happens to be one of the old published ones like that of Seleni. But on the other hand, putting myself into the VMS author's shoes, if I wanted some worthy person in the future to come across my book and read it, then I'd be inclined to encipher such that just the VMS itself would be sufficient for cracking its text, but with the correct guessing of the plaintext language(s) being a first formidable barrier. Berj ************************** RE: VMs: About Latin abbreviations From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 5/24/09 8:33 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene Zandbergen wrote Sun, 24 May 2009 11:56:45 -0700: " See here: http://inkunabeln.ub.uni-koeln.de/vdibProduction/handapparat/nachs_w/cappelli/cappelli.html In the left margin, click on any letter after: 'Wörterbuch der Abkürzungen' " Here's the 1912 Capelli online also: http://www.hist.msu.ru/Departments/Medieval/Cappelli/ Berj / KI3U ********************** VMs: 1 + 1 = 2 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 6/04/09 11:24 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net I anticipate that when Wolfram gets his alpha all the way to omega without hiccups, we may find uses for it in Voynich work. At the moment though it seems alpha has trouble even with beta: http://www.wolframalpha.com/ We input this question: " What is 1 added to the least integer? " and receive this answer: " Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. " Oh well, it's an ambitious project and we shall be patient as the baby steps are worked through. Berj / KI3U ***************************** RE: VMs: Strolling Among the Stars From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 6/12/09 2:38 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana Scott wrote Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:24:01 -0600 : " I find the following astrological illuminated folio to be of interest, in which Porphyrius commiserates with Plotinus on the fate of lost souls among the stars in the heavens. It has a look and feel in subject matter that reminds me of folios in the zodiac section of the VMs. I wonder if the author of the VMs perchance had occasion to peruse this manuscript? ..... I wonder to what degree the teachings of Plotinus may have influenced the education of the VMs scribe? " Hi Dana. That would seem consistent with Newbold's views which he expressed in his 20 April 1921 lecture at the College of Physicians of Philadelphia, "The Voynich Roger Bacon Manuscript". Describing the divisions / sections of the Voynich manuscript, Newbold stated: " ..... The leading topic delt with in this section is the procedure by which the soul becomes united to the body; I term it "biological." ..... Of these five divisions the second and third are the most important. Their common theme is the theory of the soul, and the doctrine they teach is a very ancient one. Tradition associates it with the names of Orpheus and Pythagoras; in later times it was taught, in one or another of its many forms, by Plato and his contemporary Heraclides of Pontus, by Posidonius the Stoic, Cicero's master, and by Cicero himself, by Plutarch, by many of the Gnostics and of the neo-Platonic philosophers. Its essential feature is the astral origin of the soul. The soul dwelt originally in the stars, thence is descends to suffer temporary imprisonment in a material body. If it there obeys the laws of its being it will be emancipated by death and return to its blessed life on high. Bacon never refers to this doctrine in his printed works, but he must have been acquainted with it, for he had read Martianus Capella, Plato's Timaeus with Chalcidius's commentary, and other works in which it is mentioned. ..... " Newbold goes on about this in some more detail. This Newbold's basic interpretation of the VMS bio section, with its relationship to the VMS astro section, seems to remain among the best to date. So for instance, in our 2007 J.VS comm. #96 (Vol. I) survey "Survey results: Voynich Astrological-section barrels / cans interpretations" we listed: 9.) tabernacle of being: containing the soul or spirit with the potential to ascend 16.) astrological channel between underground world and heavens above I agree that your cited Plotinus reference with that interesting illustration is well worth considering as a possible inspirational influence on the VMS author. Berj ****************************** RE: VMs: Modeling Statistical Properties of Written Text From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 6/22/09 1:17 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Knox wrote Mon, 22 Jun 2009 00:02:27 -0500 : " There is not sufficient justification for the statement in my last post that, ............... More likely it's due to an unusual number of new nouns (assuming the script is of a language). " Hi Knox. As I understand these experiments, they assume a linear, successively left-to-right path through the text spaces being tested. With the known Latin reference texts the scripting was of course so intended to convey the information. But of course in the Voynich text blocks we don't know what the information sequencing is, even if they look linear and left-to-right. Perhaps it would be interesting to repeat the experiments with some non-linear paths, anything from just boustrophedon to random paths. Berj ********************* RE: VMs: Modeling Statistical Properties of Written Text From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 6/23/09 3:30 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Knox wrote Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:51:31 -0500 : " I am getting the effect of more new words and more unique words than I should because of alterations of some of the first and last words on the VMs lines and on the first lines of paragraphs. " r. That seems to be directly related to Currier's discovery: the VMS line is a functional unit. " I might shuffle the words as thoroughly as I can. If I obtain smooth curves by shuffling, a comparison of the differences with the original sequences might partially neutralize that effect. It won't help in comparison to known texts but could apply to an isolated study of the VMs. .......... " Well, bear with me a minute while I figure out here what I think I'm thinking. Lets assume / postulate every distinct information unit in the source text, visible or not, is a "symbol" - therefore carriage return and line feed and standard blank space are symbols. And if for analytic convenience we wish, we can let source groups / words / tokens be "symbols", that is the symbols need not each be of length 1. Then, a normal text written left-to-right on successive lines, can be handled in a one-dimensional text-space. That is, the nth symbol occupies the nth position along the one-dimensional axis in the space, the n+1th symbol occupies the n+1th position and so on. Now we go to a 2-dimensional text-space. We have two axes now, and if we stick with a rectangular / orthogonal system, a simple rectangular grid, then we can let the horizontal be the x1 axis, and the vertical be the x2 axis. We could, like in many computer video maps, let the (0,0) coordinate be at "upper left". What distiguishes this 2-D "text-space" is that the axes have discreet coordinates, and the axes are of finite length - they hold a finite number of discreet positions into which symbols from the source stream can be dropped. Of course this 2-dimensional space, which must not be confused with a visible rectangular block of normal text, is un-necessary if we put down the text "linearly" as before. But, we now have the possibility for transferring / mapping the source symbols stream onto the 2-D mathematical text space non-linearly, that is in all manner of different schemes, from schemes with simple patterns, to purely "random". Now, the hypothetical experiment consists of: 1.) define a 2-D text-space, sufficiently large to hold the text blocks under consideration. 2.) define a path through the 2-D space, a path which can start anywhere in the grid, and which covers every node / coordinate in the entire space exactly once. 3.) force the known reference text(s) - Latin Vulgate Genesis or whatever, into the 2-D space along the chosen path. 4.) force a more-or-less equal sized Voynich text block into the same space along the same path. 5.) Perform the new-tokens-encountered versus tokens-type analysis along the chosen path. And see what happens. Try different spaces and paths. For which space and path does the VMS depart most in behaviour from the reference texts? For which does it depart least? Of course this takes some work to set up the computer program for it. Then it can be taken higher, we can start to think more and more in terms of: text manifold. That is, we (i.e. we the clever VMS text architect) are not restricted to just a 2-D text space. We might for example define a 3-D text space, which in the final physical written result has the source text block written so that its symbols take a 3-D path, where the x3 axis has, say, values 0, 1, 2, and these correspond to three different folios, and not even necessarily successive folios, nor folios in the same VMS section. So, I think that's roughly what I was thinking. It seems to me that VMS text analysis could use some more non-linear experimentation - this strongly came home to me during the VMS text music experiments when listening to the VMS text "music" linearly, versus its boustrophedon score. Berj ************************** RE: VMs: Modeling Statistical Properties of Written Text From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 6/23/09 3:00 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Tue, 23 Jun 2009 02:09:06 -0600 : " Berj: Very nice indeed! " Hi Don, tnx. I suppose I should clarify the step 5.) of the experimental procedure: 5.) Perform the new-tokens-encountered versus tokens-type analysis along the chosen path. The "chosen path" is of course the trial path in the text-space along which the source text has been planted. But the new-tokens-encountered versus tokens-type analysis runs along linearly as before. So we ought really to be more precise and distinguish between two paths: the path in the text-space which the source-text has been loaded into, and the analytic path through the space, which, in general is a different path, and most conveniently is the "linear" path. I think that's about right - these things can of course be rough around the edges until one sits down and actually goes through an entire analytic cycle, and removes un-necessary and confusing vocabularia :) Berj ********************* RE: VMs: f116v From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 6/26/09 9:18 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Ernest Lillie wrote Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:40:06 -0500 : " Perhaps it was written there by a later owner as a note in his own attempt to crack the writing. .... " Right. It's still a possibility that Athanasius Kircher, as an older man, received the VMS from Marci in 1665, and then spent some time on it, and that is Kircher's hand on f116v. Berj **************** RE: VMs: Source(s) on MS Herbals From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 7/02/09 5:23 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Francois Jurain wrote Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:47:33 +0200 : " Wow. Who ever said the VMs had images of truly weird plants? " Hello Francois. It depends on the zoom. When you zoom in on many of the VMS botanicals in the hi-res SID images you do often see hidden and obviously intentional additional details, and some can justifiably be denoted "weird". You can browse some example image crops, by no means exhaustive, in the J.VS Library. Berj ********************* RE: VMs: Modeling Statistical Properties of Written Text From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 7/02/09 6:33 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Knox Mix wrote Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:24:07 -0500 : " The VMs has heavy patterns. " Hi Knox. Sometime back I ran some analysis comparing some VMS text to the transcript of a stutter / stammer (Rev. Drury transcript, English language). Unfortunately obtaining good long transcripts of stammer speech isn't easy: wouldn't it be nice to have an accurate transcript several thousands words long of a 16th or 17th century philosophical conversation, say in Latin, where one of the conversants was a stammerer? There are other possibilities of more or less "ordinary" language streams which would be very interesting to compare with the VMS text, if one could just obtain long enough transcripts, for example baby talk. On the humorous side of the fence I restate that ever since I first read VMS written in EVA, I've thought it might pay to compare the VMS text with birdsong :-) Berj ***************** RE: VMs: Source(s) on MS Herbals From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 7/02/09 6:37 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:22:54 -0700 : " This makes me wonder if anyone has ever calculated the fractal dimension of the plant drawings in the VMs :-) " Now there's a great idea! Compare herbal illustrations, within the same herbal, and across different herbals, according to fractal rank. Berj ************************ RE: VMs: Source(s) on MS Herbals From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 7/03/09 2:28 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Robert Teague wrote Thu 7/02/09 10:24 PM : " I suggested the exact same thing here some months ago, and promptly got shot down about it. My idea was to find the fractal dimensions of real plants that have been tentatively identified in the VMs, then find the info for those in the VMs and compare. With all the fractal math being used in CGI movies these days, the info on real plants must exist somewhere... " I must have missed that post Robert. Julian Bunn wrote Thu 7/02/09 11:43 PM : " Reading around a bit in Google Scholar it seems that there is some doubt about the reliability of fractal dimension estimates from 2D images (or drawings) of plants/roots, the assertion being that you need to calculate the fractal dimension from the 3D information. However, this assertion seems odd to me, because I'd expect the 2D projection of a 3D fractal (e.g. something like a root ball) to also be a fractal (although maybe with a different fractal dimension - maybe that is the point?). " It seems regardless that one could get started with some preliminary stabs at it - fix some resolution boundaries for available herbal illustrations and see what comes out. But, who will do the work :-)? We do have at least one botanist with advanced math skills on the list, but Sarah has not checked in in quite a while. Berj ************************ VMs: J.VS Archives new url's From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 7/13/09 1:04 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested: the archives of the communications of the Journal of Voynich Studies have been moved to the same servers hosting the J.VS Library, effective immediately. The new url's are: J.VS Archive front-page: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/index.htm J.VS formal rules page: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSFormalRules.htm J.VS Archive index of subject-lines of all J.VS communications: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSCOMsubjlines.htm Archive Volume I, 2007, comms. #1 - 133 : http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolI2007.htm Archive Volume II, 2008, comms. #134 - 236 : http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolII2008.htm Archive Volume III, 2009, comms. #237 and up : http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm The J.VS Library url remains the same as before: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/library/new/ Note: the Voynich Manuscript interactive timeline is accessed via the J.VS Library. Berj / KI3U ****************************** RE: VMs: J.VS Archives new url's From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 7/13/09 4:18 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:05:38 +0000 : " I updated the link on my web page. " r Rich - tnx! Berj *************************** RE: VMs: Test From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 7/23/09 4:48 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net 599 hr :-) ________________________________ > From: dscott520 > To: vms-list@voynich.net > Subject: VMs: Test > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:22:36 -0600 > > > > > > > > > > test > ********************** RE: VMs: middle words From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 8/11/09 11:00 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Knox wrote Tue, 11 Aug 2009 13:53:02 -0500 : " Better depiction of and from same data. http://perseveration.pbworks.com/csintrigrams " What strikes me is the sudden "phase shift" in your first graph at x-axis dar and qokain, which occurs in the linear, almost constant, portion of the frequency curve. Berj *********************** RE: VMs: RE: birth record of Wilfrid M. Voynich From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 8/14/09 1:57 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Hi Dana Thanks for this info: Wilfrid Voynich born 31 OCT 1865, and baptized 4 NOV 1865 in the Roman Catholic parish church of Telsze, Lithuania. It's interesting that Piotr Engelking's attempt at translating the Russian-language baptismal record shows "Son of collegiate registrar Leonard and Emilia née Wojciechowicz [sp?] Wojnicz " - I wonder if this indicates that Wilfrid Voynich's parents were related? Berj ******************** RE: VMs: RE: birth record of Wilfrid M. Voynich From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 8/14/09 10:57 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Greg wrote Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:11:49 +0200: " One thing to bear in mind is that, since this was the Russian partition of Lithuania, these are quite likely Old Style dates. If so, the New Style dates would be 12 NOV and 16 NOV, respectively. " Good point to consider. " No, you're reading it wrong. It's (Leonard and (Emilia née Wojciechowicz) Wojnicz) Notice it's the only place the name "Wojnicz" appears. " I read it as you do; my query was are "Wojciechowicz" and "Wojnicz" versions of more or less the same name, say as in "Baresh" and "Barsch". Berj ******************** VMs: Inscription "678 anno" in VMS nine-rosettes foldout, maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 8/23/09 2:29 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested I have some new data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #288 (Vol. III, 23 AUG 2009): J.VS: The ponderable "678 anno" inscription in the Voynich nine-rosettes illustration http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ***************************************************** RE: VMs: Inscription "678 anno" in VMS nine-rosettes foldout, maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 8/24/09 2:04 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Mon 8/24/09 5:48 AM: " Let us know when Greg has the images up, and the link to them. " Greg Stachowski wrote Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:09:30 +0200: " The images are at: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/library/25-1-2009-08-23/ " Good morning guys. As I wrote, I'm puzzling over those marks. Presently I think there is a good possibility of intentional lettering, and a slight possibility the lettering comes to "678 anno". Given the quirkiness of the VMS, the reversal of the components, instead of "anno 678", doesn't seem particularly troublesome. But, if 678 didn't happen to be such a cardinal date in western civilization history, and for Constantinople in particular, I'd be more curious about the sequential integers: 6,7,8. Berj ************************* RE: VMs: 1594 Stage Direction for Prop Book... From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 8/24/09 2:19 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Mon, 24 Aug 2009 05:58:43 +0000: " So of course it is possible that the books in this play were any old books they had access to... but perhaps they were made for the play... and if so, where are they? But my point of course is that this gives some support to one plausible motivation faux books could have been created by. " Hi Rich. In more recent times the prop book in the film "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" is a pretty impressive piece of craftsmanship. Now, one argument against the VMS having been created as a prop book is that the VMS is simply too detailed - a stage audience would never see anywhere close to all the details in it. However, one can counter-argue that the prop book was commissioned to a craftsman who loved and took pride in his work, and delivered a far more elaborate product than the theatrical stage requirements. Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: Inscription "678 anno" in VMS nine-rosettes foldout, maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 8/24/09 9:01 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Guy Thibault wrote Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:10:45 +0000: " I looked up '678 anno' for fun on google and behold: ..... It finds a book ("Eadwine Psalter") about the first apearance of a comet in anglo-saxon books. It discuss Bede and 'liber pontificalis' where you can read: Anno dominicae incarnationis DCCXXVIII cometae duae circa solem... " Hello Guy Well that is interesting. This Eadwine Psalter seems to be a copy of the famous Utrecht Psalter. They are profusely illustrated, and I note some common basic points between some of the Psalter and VMS illustrations, in particular groups of humans crowded together within oval boundaries - see Eadwine Psalm 111, Detail of fol. 201v : http://libraries.slu.edu/archives/digcoll/mssexhibit07/manuscripts/eadwine.html As for the comet, I am always interested in anything cometary when it comes to the VMS, and so we have one more comet to note. Thanks. Berj ************************************** RE: VMs: Inscription "678 anno" in VMS nine-rosettes foldout, maybe From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 8/25/09 2:24 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Greg Stachowski wrote Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:19:02 +0200: " ... This discusses the Eadwine psalter and related topics, and has a chapter on the comet described in the Eadwine and on comet descriptions in general. The author of the chapter (the whole is a collection of papers) argues that the Eadwine "comet" is most likely a generic description rather than a specific event; also the alternative view is that the Eadwine comet is 12th century, perhaps Halley's return in 1145. Here is the chapter in Google Books: ..... " Hi Greg. I'm unable to get a screen display of the chapter, presumably due to international copyright issues. Can you clarify what the author means by the comet being a "generic description" - something along the lines of King So-and-So rose and faded like a comet? As for "678 anno" on the T-O in VMS f86r6, if it is indeed implying the year 678, and in addition to any Byzantine-Arab war significance is relying on the Anglo Saxon Chronicle for the appearance of a comet in 678, then could the VMS author also be using the comet as a generic description, or is that a relatively modern idea? Berj ************************ RE: VMs: Comet of Anno 678 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 8/26/09 7:00 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Robert Teague wrote Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:23:01 -0400: " I did some looking, but all I could find was that the comet appeared in August, and was visible in the morning for three months. There was no mention of any particular event connected with it. " Was the path anyplace interesting Robert? Near Eridanus would be interesting. You got enough info on it to plot a skypath? Berj ******************************************** RE: VMs: Comet of Anno 678 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 8/26/09 11:12 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Greg Stachowski wrote Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:49:51 +0200: " Chinese records place it in Gemini and Ursa Major; further, there is circumstantial evidence from Chinese and Japanese sources that it may have been the same comet as seen in 552, 594 and 635 (if you place the sightings in order, they occur at intervals of 41 years 4 months). If this is the case then it was a short-period comet, and as such moved near the ecliptic (consistent with the sighting in Gemini). " r Greg. That would seem to make it useless toward developing a possible accessory interpretation of the VMS nine-rosettes as Eridanus, the above, the on-the-ground, or both. Berj ********************** RE: VMs: Article: Computer Unlocks Ancient Language From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 9/08/09 5:37 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:16:12 -0700: " The article portrays the proponents of the new software as being hopelessly naive in this respect. " Well maybe it's about setting up some marketing to the naive. Incidentally, last I checked, mention of this venerable forum too had disappeared from the Voynich "Wikipedia" page by the hands of the clique which controls it. Berj / KI3U ***************************************** RE: VMs: Re:codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 9/11/09 1:55 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Thu, 10 Sep 2009 23:25:01 -0600: " Are we in that situation? " Hi Don. Conceivably we are in an even more difficult situation: we really do not yet even possess convincing proof that the VMS "script" is indeed something of that sort, although it sure looks like it, and not some purely graphic device which happens to closely resemble script. One might ponder: take a table of random numbers written with numerals 0-9, and map the numerals to ten symbols which are roughly uniform in size and easily stroked. Now in the result take some digraphs and map them to their own new symbols, so that altogether say a couple of dozen different symbols appear as the "alphabet". Reparse the mapped table so as to exhibit a distribution of group-lengths and line lengths falling within the range encountered with normal scripts. What convincing proofs are there, that given that the origin of this final result is unknown, it cannot be coherent script in some language? Berj *************** RE: VMs: Re:codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 9/11/09 5:50 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:30:03 -0600: " But I recall all the arguments among this small community about the possibility that the VMs is a made-up document to simulate something with meaning. " r Don. I've myself never believed the thing was created to deceive. Actually, I've yet to see a convincing argument from the hoax camp why the VMS should be considered a hoax. It's not "impossible" of course that it was a hoax, but where is the convincing evidence that it likely is a hoax? Berj ************************ RE: VMs: Re:codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 9/11/09 7:40 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:52:04 -0600: " The basic tongue should be Arabic or Latin, IMHO, and of course it may be some of each depending on topic. I lean toward Arabic treated logographically, ..... " Interesting. Now, I'm among the small number who believe the VMS to be a 17th century creation, and my two favorite 17th century VMS-author candidates are Joannes Marcus Marci and Robert Hooke. Marci studied Arabic, discussing his struggles therein with Kircher I recall, and so I'm curious why you lean toward Arabic. Berj ************************* RE: VMs: Re:codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 9/11/09 9:49 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Fri, 11 Sep 2009 14:17:59 -0600: " The star field names seem to have lots of beginnings resembling Al-something, an extremely common beginning for Arabic star names... " This is in tune with the cue I picked up from Robert Teague way back: that the VMS's astro section is the one where a breakthrough is likely. " Forgot to add that Hooke is a very interesting guy. ..... he chafed a bit, being a bit brighter than many of the members of the day. " Yes that's the way I see him too. To recall, a lost notebook of his, the socalled Hooke Folio, was discovered some time ago, and just before auction was acquired by the Royal Society, Royal Society Manuscript MS/847 : http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/feb/09/science.research http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?year=&id=4701 http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=7072 Berj ******************************************* RE: VMs: Re:codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 9/12/09 2:18 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Fri, 11 Sep 2009 18:20:16 -0600: " I remember such experiments as transfusion of blood between dogs, discussions of reports of stones spontaneously growing in fields and other Fortean things. The early Society was hungry for information and as nondiscriminatory as the Web! " Charles Fort (1874-1932), as Gurdjieff (d. 1949), is one I would dearly like to find something from, mentioning, or at least indicating awareness of, the Voynich Manuscript. But I haven't yet. Fort begins a 20 AUG 1931 letter to the novelist Kenneth Roberts (1885-1957) with: "Your letter is pleasantly archaic: about old books, ..... " Someone in that Fort-Roberts-Tarkington-etc. circle must have been aware of the VMS. And maybe left a comment about it somewhere. This is part of the more general idea of VMS-commentary archeology: digging up as-yet unknown commentary on the VMS, and not just from the major early VMS players we are familiar with. The potential for this field is huge, for example anyone who had a subscription to Harper's Monthly Magazine in 1921 might have read Manly's VMS article, and commented on it, in writing, perhaps in a letter to a friend. Such letters might be in attics here and there gathering dust as old family memorabilia. Or even a note left on the margin of the original Manly article. Surely such material would be as much interesting as are some of the VMS comments of present-day people here and there on the web. Berj ************************************* RE: VMs: Re:codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 9/12/09 3:57 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Keagan Brewer wrote Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:15:23 +1030: " Arabic writes right to left, and the VMS writes left to right. " .thgir ot tfel nettirw fo ecnaraeppa eht sevig txet SMV eht taht wonk lla eW But in my considerations that does not rule out much. I've experimented for example with writing Hebrew left to right. So the flat statement "The VMS is not in Arabic." requires in my view some fairly more substantial evidence. " Also, it bears no resemblance to Arabic manuscripts of the same rough period. All the drawings of ladies are white people with blonde hair! Come on... " I don't think Don meant to imply necessarily that the VMS is an Arabic manuscript at all. My take on the issue is that it is entirely conceivable that the VMS author was being experimental, and the experiments included expressions in Arabic written in a script he/she saw fit. The VMS author did what they wanted to do, not necessarily what we think he/she should have done by conventional norms. " As for the star names, it is not necessarily proven that they are in fact star names. " Agreed. But no particular reason to rule out exploring them as such. " It's something astrological, not astronomical. Something to do with the decans. " I don't think anyone would be surprised if some of the VMS folios contain astrology. But in my view the f68r3 PM-curve is hardcore mathematical astronomy best fitted into the 17th century. Berj *********************** RE: VMs: Re:codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 9/12/09 2:41 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Don Latham wrote Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:19:17 -0600: " It would be nice to pick up a reference from Fort, although he was more concerned with active occurrences? " What I'm thinking with Fort is his vast knowledge, across space and time, able to bridge, at least poetically, unusual material. So with the VMS, if he commented on it, he might have connected it with something obscure and possibly thought-provoking, something which has not yet come up in VMS work but nevertheless an angle to explore. " Read either Gurdjieff or about Gurdjieff, maybe both. Could not have been too impressed, I guess. If I remember aright, he would not likely be interested in the VM? " Actually Gurdjieff I believe would have been interested in the VMS enough to comment on it. I'm now going by memory of last having read Gurdjieff / about Gurdjieff ten years ago. He certainly had deep interest in ancient mysterious texts. He seems to have put up on his Paris school wall some mysterious script. He also concerned himself to some extent with the socalled enneagram - and anything philosophy-geometry featuring the number 9 seems worth a quick check in VMS work on account of 9 being so heavily broadcast in the VMS's climactic nine-rosettes foldout. Further, across his career Gurdjieff exhibited serious reflection on language and its role in human affairs - I think he felt it was essential to be polylingual, and that some ideas can only be satisfactorily expressed in a polylingual statement; there has been some consideration of polylingual writing now and then in connection with attacks on the Voynich text. I would say the easiest way to start reading Gurdjieff himself is with his "Meetings With Remarkable Men", which includes also one remarkable woman story. " Boy, you're shaking my synapses :-) " The lightning flashing across the synapses :-) Berj ********************* RE: VMs: codebreaking From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 9/12/09 3:49 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Robert wrote Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:04:09 -0400: " I now have twenty labels spread across four astro folios cracked. I would likely have more by now, but I've been distracted by other things. I don't have all the answers. If I did, I would have presented the translation of a paragraph by now. " What I see as valuable in your work is a system applied to a set of labels yielding plausible results. Even if they turn out to be wrong in the end, any demonstration of a pattern across a growing set of labels is analytically valuable. Criticisms against anagram techniques as a component of your exploitation of your mapping tables are cheap; there is no good reason I know of which can rule out the VMS author having employed anagramming, and we know independently that in many cases systematic anagramming can inter-transform some Voynich text groups. Berj ************************ RE: VMs: Star Table Needed From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 9/23/09 12:10 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Joel Stevens wrote Tue 22 Sep 2009 18:35:40 -0400 : " If someone could translate the German parts, especially the naming explanations, that would be fantasic! " Hi Joel. There are a bunch of us on this list who routinely translate German. If we need it, I do have a 1939 copy of von Littrow's "Die Wunder des Himmels", (in Gothic / Fraktur / blackletter script) which has tables of the traditional German starnames with the Latin equivalents. Berj *********************************** RE: VMs: Phonetics and Soundex From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 9/23/09 1:49 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Julian Bunn wrote Tue 22 Sep 2009 22:32:43 -0700 : " The phonetic distribution is *very* sensitive to what is used for the plaintext, (surprisingly?) which makes it unreasonable to draw any conclusions by comparison to the VMs. More ideas needed! " One possibility is to take the VMS input right-to-left, and also boustrophedon. Berj ***************************** VMs: Andreas Baresch, born 1697 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 9/28/09 11:30 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested, here's a little bit of new "Baresch" data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #292 (28 SEP 2009, Vol. III): J.VS: Notes on Andreas Baresch (b. 1697), Gaspar Barthius, and Alejandro Fabian http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ********************************************** RE: VMs: Folio Similarities Based on Shared Character Sequences From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 10/12/09 12:27 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Johan Hagman wrote Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:56:21 +0200 : " I forgot to mention something in the message I just sent -- you find that addition under its relevant part below. ...... I think the following experiment could give a good feel of what this tree shows: Take any document in English (existing or copied&pasted together for the purpose) that has a similar variation and structure as those we perceive the VMS to have; Calculate (neatly!) some *relative* N-gram statistics for each page (or groups thereof); and then do some cluster analysis of those matrices (with well chosen clustering settings*). ...... What you would get is most likely *not* any optimal order (top-down or bottom-up) of the pages, but you would have them ordered strictly according to their inherent structure. ...... Play with an English document and see what happens :-] " I'm not sure I understand the subtleties here, but asking dumb questions is long a specialty of mine. Accordingly, is it not logical also to experiment by mixing VMS text and the particular English text, then doing the cluster analysis, and seeing if the "inherent structure" results show VMS grouping with VMS, and the particular English text grouping with English text? Berj / KI3U ******************** RE: VMs: Folio Similarities Based on Shared Character Sequences From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 10/12/09 3:02 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Joahn Hagman wrote Mon 10/12/09 9:33 AM : " Maybe I just don't get your idea? " Hello Johan. It is not so much an idea as it is an attempt to understand your assertions. As I have it, pages of text are analyzed according to some N-gram scheme. And then operating on the results thereof some metric orders the more or less similar pages, showing groupings, or clusters; for that scheme and for that metric. So far so good, and presumably when you write: " If you cluster a collection of texts in English and (some transcription of) Voynichese, then monolingual folios would easily cluster by language first ..... " the first "cluster" word in the above can be replaced with the word "analyze", and you have the data somewhere to exhibit. But you speak of "inherent structure" in the text(s). Which inherent structure? What is the dividing line between structure imposed by the analysis and structure sufficiently characteristic of the particular text so as to set it apart from some other text? In other words, where is the check, the reference, not theoretical but hard experimental, which gauges the strength of the scheme? So the dumb question addressing that meant to ponder: that if "inherent structure" is being detected in the VMS text, then ought not the analytic scheme doing that detecting also easily separately cluster the VMS and non-VMS (say English) text pages of a mixed source? The dumb question hinges on the meaning of "inherent structure". There is tons of inherent structure in text, any text. And certainly it is extremely interesting to "Play" with it. But which inherent stucture is the one to ooh and aah over? Berj *********************** RE: VMs: Folio Similarities Based on Shared Character Sequences From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 10/12/09 9:30 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Johan Hagman wrote Mon 10/12/09 6:36 PM : " What 'data' and 'exhibit' in what sense? " Well, going back to your assertion, with the replacement for the first "cluster" : " If you carry out a cluster analysis of a collection of texts in English and (some transcription of) Voynichese, then monolingual folios would easily cluster by language first ...... " This strikes me as a very interesting, even eyebrow raising assertion, but I do not understand, what I still assume is a subtlety I am missing, why there is in the above: "and (some transcription of) Voynichese" If that were taken out, then even I could understand the assertion. But as is, I would need to see your data / graphs on which you base this entire assertion, so as to have a chance to understand. If there is a subtlety there I would like to grasp it. Berj ******************************** RE: VMs: Folio Similarities Based on Shared Character Sequences From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 10/12/09 11:53 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Gabriel R. wrote Mon 10/12/09 11:30 PM : " As someone who has done some cluster analysis of my own in the past, I can second Johan's assertion. Documents in English tend to contain very many of the same character sequences as other documents in English (sequences such as "the", "and", "is", etc. will be common in both, for example), whereas these sequences are quite rare in Voynichese. " Did you transform any of those English documents you worked with into some cipher, even the most elementary, and then cluster analyze the enciphered version? What were the results? Berj ***************** RE: VMs: Folio Similarities Based on Shared Character Sequences From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 10/13/09 4:12 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Gabriel R. wrote Tue 10/13/09 1:31 AM : " No, I didn't... sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about enciphered English text. ..... " Johan Hagman wrote Tue 10/13/09 1:37 AM : " We seem to be continuously talking using different semantics. ..... " At every point across my comments in this thread, mine being all reactive comments, I attempted to express myself as clearly as I could. I believe I am more clear now in my own mind on your positions. I have no further comments on this at this time. Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: New work on 3D rosettes... link to rendered image From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 10/13/09 2:34 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Tue 10/13/09 4:38 AM : " I got back to my 3D rosettes page tonight. ..... " It's coming along nicely Rich. Maybe, as an option, you can make transparent the blanket of stars draping the onion domes in the central rosette, even though the VMS artist rendered it opaque. During rotations this might stimulate some ideas possibly. Berj *********************** RE: VMs: New work on 3D rosettes... link to rendered image From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 10/14/09 12:37 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich wrote Tue 10/13/09 5:56 PM : " I've added the "tipped tubes" to the NW rosette, ...... " Yeah excellent, excellent!!! Now, I've always been curious about the panels on the other side of the rosettes foldout - as to their relations to the rosettes panels. For instance, one could think of the Christ-like "preaching" man hidden in the circular "field" of f86v4 facing into f86r4 of the rosettes foldout - thus motivating a 180-degrees rotation of the rosettes foldout. That sort of thing. I know this is a bit soon, but perhaps you'll decide to model the panels on the other side of the rosettes foldout, so that all twelve panels, six on each side, of that parchment are modeled as one integrated 3D object - that would be something to see. Berj ********************** RE: VMs: Gateways From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 10/21/09 1:37 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana wrote Wed 10/21/09 6:18 AM : " Early gateway into the mysteries of the Voynich Manuscript. http://www.gateways.edu.au/themysteriousf.pdf " Looks like G.A.T.E.WAYS and Dr Geoff Crawford are indoctrinating the little ones early with the habit of conjectures taken as facts: " Some time between the years 1450 and 1520 an unknown person sat down and wrote the Voynich Manuscript in an indecipherable text. " As an aside, when I was in school my public teachers routinely put together sessions like these; apparently nowadays parents have to fork over $198 for an outsider to come in, plus provide photo I.D.'s and so on. Berj / KI3U ************************* RE: VMs: FW: Voynich News From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 11/06/09 8:44 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dennis Stallings wrote Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:21:03 -0500 : " ... Well, no, I don't believe it either! ... " I looked at that website and saw a processed version of Beinecke's VMS f68r3, but could find no citation of Beinecke or Yale. Berj / KI3U ************************ RE: VMs: Is it the end of the line for DD? From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Tue 11/10/09 5:44 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Marke Fincher wrote Tue 11/10/09 4:15 PM : " And over 40% of EVA-"ll" is in the last word also in a similar fashion. " I think these, and some others are examples of what Currier had in mind when he identified the VMS text-line as a functional entity. Berj / KI3U ************************************** VMs: Prince Petru Baresch's Castle, and his 1532 Monastery Church of Watramoldawitza From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 11/11/09 5:16 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested, I have some data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 310 (Vol. III, 10 NOV 2009) : J.VS: Prince Petru Baresch, his Castle, and his 1532 Monastery Church of Watramoldawitza http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ***************************** RE: VMs: Prince Petru Baresch's Castle, and his 1532 Monastery Church of Watramoldawitza From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 11/11/09 3:32 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Blayne / VK3FIS wrote Wed 11/11/09 5:55 AM : " The above is what I get when I try to access the referenced URL. What gives? " r Blayne tnx qsl. As Rene states, the correct newer url is: http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm A simple error on my part. 73 Berj / KI3U ****************************** RE: VMs: Prince Petru Baresch's Castle, and his 1532 Monastery Church of Watramoldawitza From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 11/11/09 5:43 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene Zandbergen wrote Wed 11/11/09 12:21 PM : " Let's keep in mind that the way the Voynich MS appears to us now may not be the same as it was when it was sent to Kircher. For one thing, it appears to have been rebound by the Jesuits. " Hi Rene. I have a strong suspicion that whether or not the Jesuits rebound it, Hans P. Kraus and his associates took the book apart to its last threads to see what they could find out. " 2) Assuming Kircher also got the notes, he might have kept them with the MS, but they certainly would have been less attractive MS than the Voynich. " No! As Jan correctly emphasizes (somewhere in the variously scattered Georgius Baresch notes problem discussions), any material from Baresch would have surely been of careful interest to Kircher because Baresch would be the only source of information on his Book's actual history. " ..... beyond reasonable doubt, I would add. " That's less remote from actualities than "confirmed", nevertheless it is still a conjecture that: Baresch's Prague manuscript = Voynich manuscript Beinecke MS 408. Now, over an extended period of time I've done my good share of trying to pin the VMS to Baresch, and J.VS comm. # 310 is the latest example. These efforts going against my preferred view that on account of some of the VMS astro material, in particular f68r3, I look to the late 17th c. for the genesis of that material - making Baresch's involvement with the VMS far less likely. But the objective is to get to the actual demonstrable facts of the situation. Baresch's ms is not yet proven to be the VMS, and until so, the propagation of the notion that it is so tends to block research along alternative lines, block probing questions, and downplay the potential signficance of problems in the VMS story. Berj ****************************************** VMs: Watramoldawitza monastery location From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 11/12/09 2:01 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net I think the Moldawitza Watra / Watramoldawitza monastery location is somewhere in this area: lat. 47.672319 deg. N long. 25.056630 deg. E Unfortunately the map and image services don't have enough resolution to identify it, although from Kochanowska's description, that it sits high in a valley surrounded by bluish mountains, the best available zooms show what could be it. The area is very sparsely populated it appears. I was hoping to try a Google Earth fly-around and compare it with Rich SantaColoma's recent 3D CAD flyby of the VMS castle. Berj / KI3U ****************************** RE: VMs: Watramoldawitza monastery location From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 11/12/09 6:03 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana Scott wrote Thu 11/12/09 3:48 AM : " Find Moldovita, Romania on Google Earth: (there are pictures there of the monastery; click on little blue boxes) " Great work Dana - thanks! I get the blue boxes with the pictures but still no zoom in on the actual spot of the monastery; inadequate resolution is a real problem here. Here's a website with excellent pictures: http://www.romanianmonasteries.org/bucovina/moldovita And here's an oddity, a painting titled to be of Moldovita Monastery, but appearing quite differently: http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1435978317027350826YcIekO http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/1435978317027350826YcIekO Looks like name variations our Prince Petru "Baresch", the illegitimate son of Moldavian ruler St. Stefan III The Great and Holy, is Petru Rares, or formally, Voivode Petru Raresh. I wonder if "Baresch" in the Kochanowska article was a printer's error, confusing "B" for "R", or if dialects in that region interchange the pronounications. Either way, it may be worthwhile to investigate more of the castles, fortresses, and monasteries built by Petru Baresch / Rares. Here's his Probota Monastery: http://www.romanianmonasteries.org/bucovina/probota Boy there sure have been some changes at the Watramoldawitza monastery since Kochanowska's time just 111 years ago! Berj *********************************** RE: VMs: Watramoldawitza monastery location From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 11/12/09 6:07 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net " http://www.romanianmonasteries.org/bucovina/moldovita " r Dana - I had found that one too. Berj *********************************** RE: VMs: Prince Petru Baresch's Castle, and his 1532 Monastery Church of Watramoldawitza From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 11/12/09 5:57 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rene wrote Thu 11/12/09 7:45 AM : " I wouldn't be so sure. Kircher may or may not have been interested in Barschius' ideas. We don't even know how interested Kircher was in the VMs in the first place. Maybe he thought he did not need any hints from anybody else. We can't know. Anyway, when it comes to attractiveness (beauty), the Voynich MS does stand out. I do think it more likely, however, that the notes got lost after Kircher died. ..... And that, while this available information paints a clear and consistent picture. ..... Hence my expression: beyond reasonable doubt. " Marci, who knew Kircher for decades, and even specifically in matters of exchanging books, thought Baresch's notes important enough to include them in his VMS handover to Kircher. And that makes sense: say you've got an old mysterious book you think I should see - if you had any scrap of additional information on it, you would send them along I would think. But the crux of the matter is that only Baresch's notes can finally settle the question: is or is not Baresch's Prague manuscript the same as the Voynich manuscript? Lacking Baresch's notes, or at least some other believable witness as to the nature of Baresch's notes, we cannot know for certain, we can only opine as to how reasonable it is to so assume. A corrolary to the crux of the matter is that we don't know for sure Baresch's notes are lost, because we don't know what is in them: they could be right under our noses, but we don't recognize them as such because of the ASSUMPTION that they display elements of the Voynich Manuscript. And this comes back to the importance of not downplaying certain problems in the VMS story. The Baresch notes problem is a major VMS problem: we need them to clinch the identification of Baresch's Prague MS with the VMS. Berj ************************** RE: VMs: Watramoldawitza monastery location From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 11/12/09 6:10 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net r Dana tnx. At the moment I'd like to know if Baresch = Raresch is a dialect variation, or just a printer's error. The name "Petru Baresch" does crop up in that general part of the world, for example listed here in the 1901 "Rivista musicale italiana, Volume 8" : http://books.google.com/books? id=6Vc5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA507&lpg=PA507&dq=Petru+Baresch&source=bl&ots=kDlSJzpkQx&sig=jyP4j97q9fC5YecWzHi QliNsVnI&hl=en&ei=gUz8SpzyGpPalAevo8WIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=on epage&q=Petru%20Baresch&f=false Berj *********************************** RE: VMs: Watramoldawitza monastery location From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 11/12/09 10:38 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana wrote: " "Rares thus was not Petru's actual name but a nickname of his mother's husband." " Right - I had overlooked at. There's a path to follow. Greg Stachowski wrote: " I can't see the original Google Books scan of the German book, only the text OCR version - it may be a printing error or an OCR error if the quality of the original is bad enough. " The google books quality of the scans of the original is excellent, and even Kochanowska's illustrations come out real well. I'll screenshot the "Petru Baresch" sentence and email it to you so that you can see that it is crystal clear. " "Rivista Musicale Italiana" was published in Italy (I think in Milan); not really the same general part of the world as Romania ... :) " Well, here is the listing as seen in the google books image, very nicely sharp and clear: Petru Baresch, di E. Candella, a Bukarest. Bukarest is, pardon the inflation, astronomically closer to Kochanowska's Watramoldawitza monastery than is Italy :-). I'll send you a screenshot of that also just in case. Anyway, concerning Baresch versus Raresch as a possible dialect variation, or some other lingo transformation, is it not so that the Greek "beta" has become "veeta" ? Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: Watramoldawitza monastery location From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 11/13/09 12:33 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Greg wrote Thu 11/12/09 11:55 PM : " Or not all that clear, since it is evidently Ca_u_della :) " Yikes! Better clean my reading glasses :-). But you know what, I just now blew it up real big, of course the original is tiny print, and I really can't decide between "u" and "n" for it, compared with other u's and n's in the vicinity, though I now lean toward agreeing with you. I suppose music world knowledge is required to settle it. " Yes, but that was a very slow change. " I think there are still beta people around. Besides, I don't think the dL/dt here is really critical to the question. " By the way - Kochanowska (as the form of the name implies) was female - Augusta. I think she may have lived in the area. " Cool! She should know then. Maybe there's a portrait of her somewhere. googling "Augusta Kochanowska" the first thing I get is: http://www.artnet.com/artist/712676/augusta-kochanowska.html which shows she, if she is our she, was a Polish artist, 1863-1927, hence contemporaneous with Roger Bacon Cipher Manuscript days. Btw, I really like her illustration of the Watramoldawitza monastery - it is so much more serenely inviting than the pictures of today's UNESCO product. Maybe we can plug her monastery picture into the J.VS Library. I had in fact been trying to resolve the writing along its bottom to discern the artist, but can't quite get it - have a look - possibly it says Kochanowska and then gives a lithographer's name maybe. Maybe compare with Kochanowska's known signs on her artworks. Berj ******************************** VMs: Baresch / Bares / Rares From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 11/13/09 7:56 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested, I've got a couple more datums, woven into a current summary: Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 312 (Vol. III, 13 NOV 2009) : J.VS: Prince Petru Baresch / Bares versus Petru Rares http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ************************** RE: VMs: LIFE Magazine Special: Includes the Voynich Manuscript From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 11/19/09 6:25 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:52:00 +0000 : " I was on the grocery checkout today, and saw that the current LIFE magazine special is called, "The Greatest Unsolved Mysteries of all Time". It covers 50 mysteries, and guess which one made #1? The article is short, but fairly accurate I think. " Hi Rich. Well $11.99 ($15.99 in Canada) is a bit stiff to get nothing new in our circles, but I guess for others the total package (JonBenet Ramsey and so forth among the "Greatest" unsolved mysteries is at least an introduction. I've seen the Wilfrid picture before. They could have picked a better representative picture of the VMS I think, even several, smaller sized, to fit the alloted space. Berj ****************************** RE: VMs: OT: Newbold Goes to Torino From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 11/22/09 3:56 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dennis Stallings wrote Sun 11/22/09 6:31 AM : " Been there, seen it, had enough sense not to do that! " Reminds me of those markings on the surface of Mars seen in one of the NASA-produced images, forget which one, where without much imagination and no further image processing you can, if you wish, read a couple of the less dramatic Voynich alphabet letters. What's this all have to do with Newbold and Torino? Berj / KI3U **************************** RE: VMs: OT: Newbold Goes to Torino From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 11/22/09 10:04 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dennis wrote Sun 11/22/09 7:30 PM : " Torino for the Shroud of Turin, of course. Newbold thought he saw cipher characters in cracks in the ink of letters. This is sort of reminiscent of that. :-) " Well maybe sort of. But Newbold did begin with characters definitely written on the medium. He spent many hours examining them under a microscope. And his associate Dr. Kent apparently agreed to some of the qualitative Newbold perceptions, though quantitatively to a much lower degree. As far as I can tell, Manly, when he debunked Newbold's micro-Greek-shorthand-embedded-as-strokes-segmentations -in-VMS-glyphs assertion/hypothesis, just pulled his "cracks in the ink of letters" debunk-argument out of the air - he never provided any scientific evidence whatsoever. And to do that, to put scientific weight behind Manly's assertion, would of course require a serious amount of laboratory work, both with the VMS itself, and other ancient manuscripts of comparable inks and parchments. Newbold as we know has gotten a lot of bad press, but nevertheless he remains one of the very, very, very few guys who ever went into the VMS adventure and actually came back with something of permanent value: the Newbold formula for extracting copper from blue vitriol, a genuine, even if minor, contribution to chemistry. Granted, his method of obtaining that formula from his VMS work may be argued to be inspirational more than decipherment, but that doesn't affect the essentials: he discovered some new chemistry as a direct result of investigating the VMS. Similarly, Dr. Strong, another guy who has received a lot of bad press in the VMS world, obtained a contraceptive formula. Newbold and Strong are not the VMS-losers they are commonly perceived to be, in my view. What, for example, does Manly have to show for his VMS investigations which is of unique and permanent interest? He had a lot more time to go at it than Newbold's what, ten-something years, of VMS involvement. Newbold and Strong had their hypotheses on the VMS and they rolled with them. I sometimes suspect that here and there in a few places in the VMS text, Newbold's idea may be worthwhile considering. The VMS, across it, often gives me the impression of being crypto-steganographically encyclopedic - that the VMS author experimented with every manner of concealment-transformations he could dream up. If so, then of course the assumption of a single concealment scheme, essentially uniform across the manuscript, would frustrate grand solutions, pretty much like the frustrations every serious VMS student is long used to. So Newbold started with unequivocal script-glyphs and basically hypothesized they are a carrier wave composed of a rich spectrum of sub-carriers. Lets contrast that for a moment with another mystery, one far, far more interesting than many of the examples given as "The Greatest Unsolved Mysteries Of All Time" in the current absurdly-overpriced Life Magazine Special. Lets consider the truly remarkable mystery of the meaning of the notes of James Hampton: http://www.geocities.com/ctesibos/hampton/index.html There you state: " James Hampton also left behind a diary in a secret writing. " But Dennis, is that not a hypothesis at the outset as to what Hampton recorded in his notebook? Now, by "writing" I assume you are implying a system of communication which ultimately reflects spoken language and can be analyzed in terms of grammar and vocabulary etc. How do we know for certain that that is what Hampton recorded in his notes? We went a couple rounds on just this back in March, 2008, and you agreed: " We can't be sure that Hamptonese is a writing system, since we aren't yet sure that it is meaningful in any normal sense. " And I gave an example (keyword: "trail") of a possible non-writing hypothesis to partly explain Hampton's notes. So now, I guess in defense of Newbold, my question is: is Newbold's hypothesizing of micro-code in the definitely-real VMS glyphs on any less-secure ground than the hypothesis that Hampton had a writing system (in the normal sense) in his mysterious notes? Berj *************************************** RE: VMs: Slashdot discusses Edith Sherwood's "decoding" From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 12/03/09 2:22 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Greg wrote: " Just for the record (there's nothing new there): ...... " Jan wrote: " Now for the real discovery: is it possible that under the pseudonym of Dr. Sherwood is hiding the great-great grandson of funny monk Little John? Little do we know . . . " As I recall, Edith Sherwood sees, in a low-resolution VMS image, a newborn baby held by a VMS lady-in-the-tub. Wonder why she does not have a good look at the high-resolution image of that scene. Berj / KI3U ************************** VMs: 1404-1438 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 12/03/09 6:52 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net I picked up the link to this: http://derstandard.at/1259281171438/Ein-Schleier-weniger-ueber-dem-Voynich-Manuskript from the German VMS group. Seems that someone has decided with high probability the VMS parchment tests to a date-range of 1404-1438. etc. Rene should know more. Berj / KI3U ************************ RE: VMs: 1404-1438 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 12/03/09 10:00 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan Hurych wrote Thu 12/03/09 8:32 PM : " so again, good old friar Bacon is frying on the backburner. " Yeah, and also once again the "humanist hand" will be in fashion in Voynichville :-). Gee, how could poor ole George Baresch miss all that humanism and think some good man went to the Orient and copied some old stuff over there and brought it back. " So we can start from scratch: where was the VM originated then? " No doubt someplace where the cosmic ray flux over the long term behaves as humanists would have it :-). Berj ************************* RE: VMs: 1404-1438 From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 12/04/09 12:14 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Jan wrote Thu 12/03/09 11:13 PM : " by the way they mentioned some evaluation was done in Arizona. Could Dana know about it? " I don't know but I'm waiting to hear. I did look at both the U. Arizona lab's site: http://www.physics.arizona.edu/ams/ and the McCrone Lab site: http://www.mccrone.com/ but found nothing mentioning the Voynich manuscript. I guess it's a bit early yet, and any hard data will eventually be published, and detailed enough so that some estimate of the reliability can be made. In the meantime the film guys have planted the seed in the public mind that the 1404-1438 dating is the final word, and post-Columbus with sunflowers, armadillos, peppers and so on are dead. Berj *********************** RE: VMs: 1404-1438; ruled lines problem From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 12/06/09 6:20 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net David Suter wrote Fri 12/04/09 4:49 PM : " Anyone who studies the black and white images (takahashi?) in sufficiently close detail may notice that they are often covered with barely detectable ruled "pencil-like" lines. Bunny wrote Sun 12/06/09 4:58 PM : " Hi David, I asked Beinecke about this in detail many moons ago and the explanation that came back was that it was a peculiarity of the process of the scanning and not the manuscript. I don't know if I'm completely convinced about that though and they declined to check the actual manuscript. " Well, perhaps we can add this to the general mystery of peculiarities with VMS photographs over the many moons since Wilfrid Voynich started everything, almost allowing the (perish-the-thought) question: were there more copies of the Voynich manuscript, or at least partial copies, in Wilfrid Voynich's possession? Some references to this for those who might be interested: " As an aside, concerning the photographic oddities of early Voynich manuscript history, we recall that Wilfrid Voynich's 1921 photograph of f1r is at odds with the image of Beinecke MS 408 f1r as it appears today. " [1] " Well back in January we saw that Wilfrid's 1921 photo of f1r and today's Beinecke f1r have some radical glyphs differences, including an entire word (J.VS comm. #74 gives the ref.) - so since then I've assumed that at least some of the touch-up was done by Wilfrid & Company [text-ink touch-up should not be confused with painting in the ms]. And Wilfrid was originally studying chemistry I've read. " [2] " Wilfrid's Plate 2 picture is seriously problematic though: it differs radically in some places from the modern (2004) high-resolution SID image provided by the Yale Beinecke Library, and the differences are not easily explained as merely resulting from the ravages of time, but unfortunately compel at least the consideration that the bottom area of f1r was actively altered AFTER the Plate 2 was made [6]. Since it was certainly altered before by Wilfrid, i.e. with chemical treatment, the overall status of what the bottom area of VMS f1r had on it originally, is quite in doubt. " [3] Berj / KI3U [1] Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 74 (Vol. I, 27 AUG 2007): J.VS: The Miss Nill Lone Ranger Mask blinking pictures http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolI2007.htm [2] Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 101 (Vol. I, 8 OCT 2007): J.VS: Dialog: possible "masked" key on a Voynich f102v1 "incense burner" http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolI2007.htm [3] Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 280 (Vol. III, 14 JUL 2009): J.VS: The p-problem of the alleged Tepenecz autograph on Voynich f1r http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm ******************************************************* RE: VMs: 1404-1438; ruled lines problem From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 12/06/09 8:46 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net bunny wrote Sun 12/06/09 8:23 PM : " Opps! ...... " No problem - I wasn't confused by your post. Tnx for the data. Berj ********************** VMs: Newbold revisited: microdetails in the VMS From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 12/07/09 4:56 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net For all who are interested I've collected some data: Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 317 (Vol. III, 6 DEC 2009) J.VS: Revisiting Newbold's approach: little people under the Voynich microscope http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm The actual 48 image files may take a bit to arrive in the J.VS Library depending on the Librarian's (Greg's) current busyness. Berj / KI3U ************************ Re: VMs: Newbold revisited: microdetails in the VMS From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 12/07/09 4:31 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net I gave the Library deposit # incorrectly in J.VS comm. #317. The correct J.VS Library deposit # for the selected images for Newboldian analysis is: 27-1-2009-12-06 http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/library/27-1-2009-12-06/ Sorry for any confusion. Berj / KI3U ****************************** VMs: Trailer video for the tv documentary From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Mon 12/07/09 10:00 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net This link to a trailer for the tv documentary just came in on the German list: http://tvthek.orf.at/programs/35429-Universum/episodes/1024339-Universum---Das-Voynich-Raetsel Das-Voynich-Raetsel = The Voynich Puzzle The side-blurb reads: " Universum - Das Voynich-Rätsel: Die geheimnisvollste Handschrift der Welt Es ist die mysteriöseste Handschrift der Welt: Ein Buch, verfasst von einem unbekannten Autor, illustriert mit ebenso skurrilen wie rätselhaften Darstellungen - und in einer Sprache geschrieben, die von den besten Kryptographen nicht entschlüsselt werden kann. Kein Wunder also, dass diese Schrift sogar in Dan Browns neuem Mystery-Bestseller "Das verlorene Symbol" eine Rolle spielt. Denn das Voynich-Manuskript fesselt seit seiner Entdeckung vor 100 Jahren Wissenschaftler und Okkultisten gleichermaßen. Ob die Entzifferer des japanischen PURPLE-Codes, Physiker mit modernen Hochleistungscomputern oder universalgelehrte Historiker - sie alle versuchten ihr Glück. Aber bisher konnte niemand den Inhalt des Buches dechiffrieren. Diese Dokumentation verfolgt eine völlig neue Spur, die zum Autor führen könnte und versucht erstmals, mit materialwissenschaftlichen Methoden das Geheimnis des mysteriösen Manuskripts zu lüften. Eine Dokumentation von Klaus Steindl und Andreas Sulzer " My quick 5-minutes translation: Universum - The Voynich Puzzle The most mysterious handwriting of the World It is the most mysterious handwriting of the world: a book, created by an unknown author, illustrated with equally comical and puzzling portayals - and written in a language, which cannot be deciphered by the best cryptographers. No wonder then, that this writing plays a role even in Dan Brown's new Mystery-Bestseller "The Lost Symbol". Thus since its discovery a hundred years ago the Voynich Manuscript grips scientists and occultists the same. Whether the decipherers of the Japanese PURPLE-Codes, physicists with modern high-performance computers or polymathically learned historians - they all tried their luck. But to the present no-one could decipher the contents of the book. This documentary follows an entirely new track, which could lead to the author and attempts for the first time, with materials sciences methods to air the the secret of the mysterious manuscript. A documentary by Klaus Steindl and Andreas Sulzer Berj / KI3U ****************************** RE: VMs: "more fool them" and dating From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 12/10/09 6:07 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net bunny wrote Thu 12/10/09 5:40 PM : " To clarify, I am more than happy to dig around in the 1400's if necessary and start the whole research process again, but I have not yet reason to discard my results. " Well me too - I do have an old horse running which fits perfectly into 1404-1438: Christine de Pizan. However, I still prefer to note the various post-Columbus INDICATIONS in the VMS, including the sunflower, capsicum pepper, and so on. " Unless the sky or the laws of physics have changed since the dating, I work under the assumption that there is an as yet undetermined reason for the date discrepancy, most likely although not routine is that it was in fact written at a later date on old vellum. " I'm not too worried about the laws of physics yet, but I think it is important to keep in mind that a radiocarbon date is distinct from an unqualified "date". Very distinct. Presumably popular perceptions tend to forget the distinction, but a radiocarbon date is just one more INDICATION, nothing more and nothing less. As for this case with the VMS we have to have detailed information about the procedures used - I hope we get them. Berj / KI3U ********************* RE: VMs: Das Voynich-Rätsel From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Fri 12/11/09 7:40 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dana Scott wrote Fri 12/11/09 1:24 AM : " Das Voynich-Rätsel may be viewed at the following website: http://tvthek.orf.at/programs/35429-Universum " Thanks Dana. I've watched the ORF-produced Universum Voynich video just once, and my opinion- comments below are based on this first viewing. Starting into it I realized it would be good to note some times down - below they are only approximate. The video seems to be ~ 44 minutes long. From the dramatic perspective I liked it, especially the Wilfrid Voynich actor :-), although of course it is questionable whether or not Wilfrid found the VMS at Mondragone as the video enacts. Basically the video's provided VMS-background is taken from the usual popular standard VMS history. The music, though excellent, is at least 6 dB too loud for my ears - really distracts from concentrating on the dialogs and video flow. The narrator talks too fast, and has an irritating voice to my ears. The main objective of the film is quite clear and stated explicitly at the very end: to give the viewer the solid impression that up until the events dramatized in this video the VMS's epoch and place of origin were uncertain, but now finally it is placed 1404-1438 in northern Italy. ~ 11 minutes into it: I think they flatly state that Tepenec owned it, and Rudolf owned it before Tepenec. What I call the Tepenec Illusion is performed with masterful perfection: the magician has his lovely stage assistant shine a strangely-glowing UV light on the VMS f1r, and with the video framing just enough of f1r to produce the suggestion of the Tepenec, the narration informs us that Jacobus Tepenec is seen there. The Jacobus of course isn't attempted, and the narrow framing around the alleged Tepenec, blocking the context, achieves the intended objective. Quickly the video cuts to exploring the man Tepenec. Absolutely nothing more is seen in this UV-shining than is seen with Dana Scott's long-available processed SID-images of the "Tepenencz". [1] ~ 15 mins. Marci's last letter, which we know is not in his hand, is gone over. ~ 20 mins. Richard SantaColoma is interviewed. ~ 23 mins. microscopic investigation of the inks and pigments by a real scientist is introduced - the conclusion is that the ink (iron gall) and pigments are "completely appropriate" to the 15-16th centuries. Hence, the narration informs us, this proves that the VMS is authentic and not a modern fabrication. The ink and pigments being completely appropriate to the 15th and 16th centuries rings scientifically true of course, and is not at all surprising, but that's a far cry from what we had read in a pre-broadcast 3 DEC 2009 news article, where it was stated: " In addition, experts at the McCrone Research Institute in Chicago determined that the ink was not added in a later period. " [2] ~ 24 mins. Gordon Rugg is interviewed, demonstrating some of his Cardan Grille arguements, and leading to Kelley being the proposed VMS author. ~ 38 mins. U. Arizona radiocarbon testing is introduced. The narration comments that til now this analysis wasn't done because of the large samples required - we see the scientist cut one of the four samples (it's big! - I felt a distinct ouch! coming from the poor VMS :-). The results are that the 4 samples closely group together (a graph is shown with three of the four overlapping) and the scientist is 95% confident of the date 1404-1438. There is no effort whatsoever to inform the viewer that a radiocarbon date is distinct from an unqualified "date". Even if it were possible for all the world's radiocarbion scientists to agree with 100% confidence, it would still be a radiocarbon date, and not an unqualified dating of the VMS, much less a dating of when the VMS author's hand actually hit the blank parchments. Good to remember that. ~ 40 mins. Rene says the VMS was written in 1420. Next the only "city" illustrated in the VMS (nine rosettes castles) is taken to belong in 1404-1438, and the swallow-tail merlons are noted. We are informed that since these constructions existed at that time only in northern Italy, the video by: ~ 41 mins. declares that northern Italy is where the VMS originated. ~ 42 mins. The dramatic finale is announced: before now the time and place of origin of the VMS were unkown, but now they are known. The video does emphasize dramatics over presenting detailed new information, especially the scientific. Near the beginning one of the lady experts at the Beinecke, talking with Rene over the VMS before them, thinks it's a straightforward alchemy-influenced herbal: the botanically-inaccurate plant drawings typically emphasize instead astrological influences important to people back in early times, before around the 16th c. herbals began to show more botanically-accurate illustrations. But she does at one point say "I don't know". I was basically dumbfounded that in this video they had the VMS under a good microscope (shown) and didn't look at even a single one of its countless micro-details! From beginning to end they had their objective in mind, and filtered out complications, no matter how much more interesting and potentially illuminating. Let me add here once again that the VMS exhibits a number of INDICATIONS that its CREATION dates to post-Columbus times, and it is just as incorrect to now banish study of those indications and potentially more like them, as it would be to equate "radiocarbon date" with "date". My impression is that the planners of this ORF Universum video decided that it was necessary to have a couple of well-known VMS researchers to present as the examples of "They were wrong about the VMS!!" so as to emphasize one of the video's major punchlines: namely that the manuscript is far older than previously thought (which isn't true anyway), and thereby increase the strength of the film's dramatic finale at the end: that whereas before both the time and place of origin of the VMS were unknown, now, thanks to ORF's et al efforts, they are known to be 1404-1438 and in northern Italy (hardly a surprise of course since those have been in the VMS hypotheses hopper for many years). It is my personal impression that both Gordon Rugg and Richard SantaColoma were set up, and used, to achieve the ORF Universum video's dramatic objectives. Although I do not subscribe to most of Gordon Rugg's VMS postulates, I could not help but get a feeling that the video's moaning Kelley scenes were somewhat mocking Rugg's efforts, even if the video's planners and producers were doing that only subconsciously. Again, this was my personal impression. Negatives aside, it appears that some real scientists have had a go at the physical VMS. We await their peer-reviewed published data, including of course an answer to the question: did you throw out any data-points, and if so, which ones and why? Perhaps the most useful parts of the video are the views of the actual manuscript, and seeing some faces and listening to what's being said - there's plenty of body-language in this video to have a look at. Berj / KI3U [1] For a discussion of the alleged Tepenecz name on Voynich folio f1r see: Journal of Voynich Studies communication #280 (Vol. III, 14 JUL 2009) J.VS: The p-problem of the alleged Tepenecz autograph on Voynich f1r http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm [2] http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1516863.php/Mysterious-Voynich- manuscript-is-genuine-scientists-find ****************************************** RE: VMs: RE: VMs: Das Voynich-Rätsel From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sat 12/12/09 2:57 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Richard Sale wrote Sat 12/12/09 1:47 AM : " What are the facts? " Well one the facts I would like to know is from which locations in the VMS the four samples for radiocarbon analysis were taken. All I have presently is that four samples were taken from different pages in the VMS, but I do not even know if those pages represent any number up to four different quires. Berj ************************** RE: VMs: Das Voynich-Rätsel From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 12/13/09 12:01 AM To: vms-list@voynich.net Kbody wrote Sat 12/12/09 9:17 PM : " I have seen very little iron gall ink in VMs, only where the names of months have been written later. The ink is a free flowing brown, not black. ...... " Hi Keith - good to hear from you - it's been a while! Well I've seen the ORF video just once so far and reported my notes that I had jotted down as I was watching it - and I thought I heard the narrator say iron gall ink (in German). I do intend to watch the video again when I get a chance (am busy shovelling snow lately - you know how it is) and try get some clarifications. In the meantime perhaps others aboard the list who've seen it more than once might comment on what they picked up. Dana (Scott) informed us off-J of the following online Yale University Library Preservation Department 38th Annual Report: http://www.library.yale.edu/preservation/annual%20rpt%2009%20final.pdf wherein there is a little bit of information on the materials testing on the VMS done by the scientists from U. Arizona and MCrone Associates. It says the analysis will be documented and made available at some point in the future. There is from this pdf also the sense that the VMS never left Yale-Beinecke to travel to the U. Arizona and McCrone home laboratories, but rather the scientists travelled to Yale. Berj ********************************* RE: VMs: Das Voynich-Rätsel From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Sun 12/13/09 10:47 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Keith wrote Sun 12/13/09 8:45 PM : " A lot of work in the production, I was surprised to see the colour saturation, and see protective gloves only once, although there are differing opinions of the cotton gloves. " Yes I thought that too about the gloves. The bright colors of the actual VMS pigments have been reported a number of times by those who've seen the real VMS. I was hoping the video would give a closer look at the book's cover, and I still wonder if a radiocarbon sample was taken from it. " ..... do you know of anyone offering an opinion on the eva

gallows character that mostly bunches up on the first line of a paragraph? It was quite common for correspondence to have a first line with a lot of flourishes added to the characters. Is this appearance over content? " I believe over the years, here and there are various comments and ideas on initial or near-initial gallows including EVA-p / GC-g, both explicit comments and implied - it would take some doing to search through all the stuff, in particular the list archives, to find some specific comments, but it seems about everything from flourish to mathematical cipher marker has been considered, but there is no consensus I know of. Myself I've even had the thought of it being akin to a kind of "Amen" symbol: VMSChristGallowsSymbls.jpg 244K http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/library/2-1-2007-06-13/ " As I am now 76, I could disappear without trace any time. " Well it seems as we get older we think about things like that more often. Is there a lifespan-clock ticking on each of us from the moment we are conceived, a clock to which our potential biological lifespan is subservient? Do the Fates like us, or are they amused by us and keep us around a bit longer just to watch us walk a path they presumably know from beginning to end? Why does life, on the face of it, so often seem unfair? A long time ago it occurred to me that if I was to take physics seriously, which I decided I had to, I would have to pay special attention to invariances and the conservation laws of physics. Upon that followed my decision that, seriously, everything I'm experiencing can make sense only if there is some sort of conservation of consciousness principle operative in the universe. More or less fully "awake", my consciousness is integrated, while asleep my subconscious is more or less fully integrated and my consciousness is diffused. I think this process is independent of the stage within which consciousness acts - notably attached to a physical body in "life". Personality of course complicates this: it isn't necessarily the case that the diffuse consciousness condensing back into an integrated state, will condense exactly around the same set of personality elements as before. I have to say that because I've long been convinced that the VMS author was both an extremely brilliant and interesting individual, I would love to discuss ideas like these with him or her, and it wouldn't matter if the vocabulary of the discussion was astrological or modern physics. Berj ******************************* RE: VMs: Galileo's Ink From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Wed 12/23/09 2:58 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Rich SantaColoma wrote Wed 12/23/09 1:21 PM : " A science historian, "Wallace Hooper", compiled a database of the different inks Galileo used throughout his working life. This helped to order much of the work, which is often undated. ..... http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v24n3/p12.html I think the implications to the Voynich are many, and obvious, as relates to ordering of pages, "different hands", and so on. " Good find Rich. We have some other refs. in this general area: Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 278 and # 279 (vOL. III, 7 JUL 2009) J.VS: Galileo's ink and the discovery of planet Neptune J.VS: Re: Galileo's ink and the discovery of planet Neptune http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm Journal of Voynich Studies communication # 286 (Vol. III, 19 AUG 2009) J.VS: Writing and drawing with 150-million-years old ink http://www.as.up.krakow.pl/jvs/JVSvolIII2009.htm Berj / KI3U ***************************************** RE: VMs: OT: Hardware Random Number Generators From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj N. Ensanian KI3U Sent: Thu 12/24/09 3:23 PM To: vms-list@voynich.net Dennis Stallings wrote Thu 12/24/09 6:42 AM : " This is only on-topic insofar as it involves cryptography, where you may want true random numbers. ..... Cheers and Merry Christmas, everyone! " Some nice Christmas toys there. What is true random? Random is the pattern of no patterns? Or, if it's really random then it could have any pattern? Or, random is a random definition of random? Or, ..... oh well, just some random ramblings. Merry Christmas! Berj / KI3U **************************