From : Berj N. Ensanian Reply-To : vms-list@voynich.net Sent : Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:52 AM To : vms-list@voynich.net Subject : VMs: Re: Disturbing image: Diatom overlay Commenting on Rich SantaColoma's new diatom overlay picture, Robert Teague wrote Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:26:48 -0400: " My question is, if it is a diatom, what would it be doing in the middle of the astro/cosmo section? " I could well be an expression of the ms author's philosophical view of unity in the cosmos: a common mathematical creative language employed by the cosmic creative force. The unity in the microscopic and macroscopic worlds. That is easy to accept if one is, like I am, inclined to perceive the entire Voynich manuscript designed to express that very philosophy. Indeed, Rich's investigations continue to be a source of fresh ground and very interesting ideas. Berj *********************** From : Berj N. Ensanian Reply-To : vms-list@voynich.net Sent : Saturday, July 28, 2007 11:22 AM To : vms-list@voynich.net Subject : RE: VMs: Re: Well, don't that just put a hole in yer Sunday-go-to-meetin' britches? Robert writes Sat, 28 Jul 2007 10:19:24 -0400: " Is there a current list available (perhaps based on the V-101 transcription) of letters that are word-initial and word-final? " Don't know, but it is easy enough to make lists per what you want. I'll email you a plain .txt file of the Voynich vocabulary set according to GC's work, and which I count (from his work) to be 11,289 distinct Voynich glyph-groups (words). You can then write a simple BASIC program to count the info you need. Actually, it would be very interesting if you transformed GC's entire vocabulary into a Teague numbers transcription vocabulary. Berj ***************** From : Berj N. Ensanian Reply-To : vms-list@voynich.net Sent : Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:20 AM To : vms-list@voynich.net Subject : VMs: Interactive Timeline for Voynich Studies General Announcement: An interactive Timeline for Voynich studies is now available online: http://www.as.ap.krakow.pl/jvs/library/0-2-2007-09-13/ It uses the Timeline software of MIT's SIMILE project. This Voynich Timeline is a work in progress, and is intended to be of use to all Voynich interested parties from new beginners to seasoned Voynich research veterans. Berj / KI3U ***************************** From : Berj N. Ensanian Reply-To : vms-list@voynich.net Sent : Monday, October 1, 2007 9:44 AM To : vms-list@voynich.net Subject : RE: VMs: RE: Interactive Timeline for Voynich Studies Alexandre Jos‚ Germano de Abreu wrote Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:24:21 +0100: " Congratulations - very interesting and useful. " Thank you - it is an effort of several contributors with Greg Stachowski pulling the lion's share of the load. Also we are taking advantage of the fine efforts of some folks from the Massachussets Institute of Technology. Berj ************************ Subject VMs: Comments: THOU SHALT NOT FEAR THE VOYNICH MANUSCRIPT Sent Date 11-02-2007 2:21:19 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Comments on the manipulation of public perceptions of Voynich ms research and progress: It seems to me that the Voynich page in the popular online wikipedia [1] is evolving into a very interesting database for those interested in studying the psychology of various personas variously visible in the Voynich world. You can quickly and easily get yourself a wikipedia account, and then log in and explore the history of edits of the Voynich page, a wonderful permanent record that is quite readily navigated. Well done wikipedia! Attempts at controlling the wikipedia-public projection of the highly competitive Voynich scene is complex and diverse of course, but here in particular I wish to say that ancillary to all this, I hold that it takes, in addition to hard work and luck, a measure of courage to open or pioneer possible new inroads into the Voynich mystery, whether they eventually prove to be fruitful or not, essentially correct or misguided. The Voynich world has after all its long entrenched views and interests and socializing aspects that could easily be jarred, sending ostrich feathers flying all over the place so to speak, if some surprising new potential research developments threatened the status quo, and in particular threatened the Voynich public's perception of the real worth of some of its "expert" personas, especially the type that focus on producing, not original ideas and work, but rather focus on producing the projection of being a Voynich expert. In contrast, I hold that it takes no courage at all, but merely the mind of a reacting automaton to attempt suppression of the discussion of new ideas that threaten the status quo. At the end of the evening of 31 OCT 2007 there was in the Voynich wikipedia a modest presence of material associated with the Journal of Voynich Studies [2], material that had taken several days of learning enough wiki editing to integrate properly and conservatively: In the "Steganography" section, there was a small crop image from f37v, about 86 kilobytes altogether, with the filename "TheKingVMSf37vKI3U.jpg". There was a quite short paragraph describing possible steganographic master artwork embedded in low-level art, a new possibility in Voynich considerations. There was an image showing a study of the f76r text-page from the point of view of it possibly being hand-script text-art, another new possibility, that if true, certainly profoundly impacts all considerations of the Voynich text; moreover its question is one of the few in Voynich work which can be decided by equal-weight input from the proverbial man in the street, who otherwise has no particular familiarity with the Voynich manuscript, nor any special interest in it. In the "Illustrations" section, under "Astronomical", there was a picture "VmsPMCurvePano.jpg" with the rather conservative caption: " In the f68r3 astronomy panel a curve linking the moon and Pleiades may have been deliberately plotted - its shape carefully controlled. Upon that hypothesis one analysis concludes that the mathematical equation of the "PM-curve" derives from an ellipse - the implications altogether suggesting a composition better placed in the 17th century than the 15th. Above: panel detail, and magnified curve on reference crosshairs. " Altogether, with respect to these comments here, there were in the Voynich wikipedia a little paragraph, three pictures with captions, the references for the pictures, and two lines in the External links at bottom, one with the J.VS url, and the other with the Voynich Timeline url, a J.VS project for the general interested public. On the morning of 1 NOV 2007 all but the two lines in the External links section had been edited out, leaving the old long-entrenched impression of what is politically correct in the Voynich world. Interestingly, the wiki edit history shows the budding Inquisitor to be a nominal "expert", with some admirers, on the new (and old) vms-list. Even more interesting is the reason this persona has recorded for editing out the plain vanilla straightforward little 86 kilobytes crop from the Beinecke MS 408 source, fTheKingVMSf37vKI3U.jpg. One can easily get the impression of a VMS "expert" gone mad with fear, fear of the unexpected in the world's most mysterious manuscript. To each his own. Were it not for the interesting psychological aspects, it would be a waste of time bringing this up. The psychologists and historians eventually studying these matters will have much interesting material in the permanent record, including that of the history of wikipedia edits, to comb over and analyze - I look forward to that as a Voynich field in its own right. But for me, I have to continue to believe that true progress in chipping away at the Voynich mystery requires the maxim: THOU SHALT NOT FEAR THE VOYNICH MANUSCRIPT Berj / KI3U [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript [2] http://geocities.com/rfamperes/ *************************************** Subject RE: VMs: Pdf Sent Date 11-09-2007 11:17:34 AM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To David wrote 08 Nov 2007 09:15:01 -0500" " Therefore, it might be productive to look at the linguistic rules which pertain to dying languages; for instance, perhaps they "forget" vocabulary as their original contexts fade away, producing patterns with very few words. Perhaps they endlessly repeat phrases as a way of preserving a memory.... " An interesting thought, I thought. Although I might replace "linguistic rules" with "linguistic habits" or "linguistic tendencies". In any case it seems remaining open-minded to the thought that the VMS text author does not owe today's would-be text-cracker any adherence to conventional thinking of how the text elements are employed, including even that the text-elements may be, in parts of the manuscript, employed as purely graphic elements, like mosaic tiles, and in those instances, although appearing to conventional thinkers as blocks of mysterious text to be cracked and read, are instead the VMS author's choice of a different use of the glyphs / letters. Berj / KI3U *************************** Subject RE: VMs: Pdf - Word Mosaic Puzzle Sent Date 11-09-2007 1:20:58 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To R. Sale wrote Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:37:55 -0800 (PST): " Wouldn't the author be a bit more clever, perhaps, and not only create the mosaic you describe, such as the pantheon of labels in the zodiac pages, and then, in addition, to hide the fragments of a meaningful message within it using a potential mechanism such as that found in the VMs - e.g. the patterned boxes? Not only has the author given us a code, I would suggest, but also created a puzzle which must be unlocked before the code can be deciphered. " Well why not? Why not the VMS the author's smorgasboard of techniques, varying from here to there across the manuscript's pages. At this point I put no limits on the VMS's author's cleverness - he / she has certainly fooled me enough times over the years, while continuing to reveal that the mind behind it all is a superior one, and not a mere hoaxer, not an accidentally lucky stumbler-upon-the-stuff-of-greatness, or some such notion. I've said before that I believe the VMS author was keenly aware of the psychology of "intellectuals", and was influenced in the VMS creation by the knowledge of that psychology. And this vms-list is a good place to observe the dynamics of that. I believe the VMS author consciously saw themselves as superior, head and shoulders superior to the vast majority of those who would come across his / her manuscript and attempt to understand it. And I think a mind like that considers even the cleverest techniques as just vehicles for delivering ultimately a philosophy. I think the VMS author is by nature closer to a Socrates than to the best code-cracker or puzzle-inventor who ever lived. Berj / KI3U *************************** Subject Re: VMs: Pdf - Word Mosaic Puzzle Sent Date 11-09-2007 11:48:45 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Jan Hurych wrote Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:40:19 -0800 (PST): " I wonder how much humor is in teh VM, anyway. " I've wondered also Jan. I don't know. Although I do think the VMS author consciously thought of him / her self as a highly superior individual, I do not think it was in a cynical manner, but rather in a realistic manner. I've often, as you well know, needed humor to keep going at the VMS, and it seems a distinct possibility to me that the VMS author put some humor in there somewhere. If the f39r "Rudolf's Court montage" is real, then it seems at least that the VMS author put caricature into the ms. Berj *********************** RE: VMs: Pdf - Word Mosaic Puzzle? From: owner-vms-list@voynich.net on behalf of Berj Ensanian Sent: Sat 11/10/07 12:30 AM Reply-to: vms-list@voynich.net To: vms-list@voynich.net Well Steve I mentioned last year, on and off-list, some of my concerns with extra-ordinarily obtained inspirations, dreams or other: interpretation of the literal meaning. Let me try again: 1.) Assume ES is a valid acceptable source of inspiration on the VMS 2.) ES says: IT'S OLDER THAN YOU THINK. 3.) Interpretation is not necessarily cut and dried, in my view. Suppose for example, that "YOU THINK" means "YOU AS A THINKING BEING". Then ES may be saying it is older since you were old enough to be thinking coherently, that is approximately since you were born. Needless to say, the VMS is certainly from before you were born. I'm not ridiculing anything here, but once again saying that in my experience with extra-ordinarily received information, there can be issues of interpretation of the literal meaning. Berj *************** Subject Re: VMs: Pdf - Word Mosaic Puzzle Sent Date 11-10-2007 11:20:29 AM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Jan Hurych wrote Sat, 10 Nov 2007 04:27:07 -0800 (PST): " ..... it occured to me that the author put his name or identification somewhere in the book . That's the kind of humor I had in mind and that's why is the steganographical analysis of the VM so important. " Yes I suppose it could be a kind of philosophical humor: the inscrutable manuscript has the author's self-identification plainly, albeit steganographically, there in it somewhere, going un-noticed because of prejudiced ideas on what the manuscript "should be". As for a good candidate for the author's self-identification, presently I think the hypothetical hand-script text-art portrait that takes up the upper half of f76r is the best bet for his likeness. It takes up half a page, and so far nothing else like it is known in the manuscript. Now, we have been debating quite intensely, on and off the J.VS forum, the peculiarities of the f76r text page. The most important question of course is: Is the text block of the upper half of f76r depicting a portrait, a hand-script text-art portrait that has been produced by employing the mysterious Voynich text glyphs as mosaic tiles? Yes or no? If no, then one can suppose a range of dismissals from: there is nothing whatsoever unusual about that text block (other than its mysterious alphabet) compared with any other handwriting, to: there is perhaps some unusual pattern but it is purely accidental and not suggestive of anything in particular, much less an astonishing detailed three-dimensional portrait. And if interesting and useful, one can bring in fancy words like "pareidolia" etc. and wax off that way. The part that I like the best about this entire question Jan is that the yes or no of it is completely independent from an opinion-givers knowledge of the Voynich manuscript! You put f76r in front of the "man in the street", and either they see something, or they don't. It does not matter in the slightest what they know about the Voynich Manuscript, nor even if they have ever heard of it. It doesn't matter in the slightest if that man in the street is educated or not - everyone with normal healthy eyesight may give an equal-weight opinion. It is after all a question that deals with the fundamental survival apparatus of human beings: the ability of a person to perceive the traces of manipulation of the environment, by someone else of their own kind. And so, if the hundred or so top most knowledgable Voynich workers cannot perceive a portrait in f76r, but thousands or millions of "man in the street" do see more or less the same thing, an intentional portrait, then Voynich workers, despite their inability to agree, nevertheless have something to cheer about: some serious data on the manuscript that is free of their own possible peculiar biases. We have our biases that we inject into the Voynich studies field, for example I inject the bias that the f68r3 PM-curve is a carefully plotted curve by an advanced mathematical astronomer, and on account of the specialized nature of that particular question it requires specialized persons, mathematical scientists, preferably astronomers, to decide the issue. The man in the street cannot weigh in with the PM-curve. But she and he mosty definitely can weigh in, as well as anyone, upon the hypothesis that f76r steganographically holds a portrait artwork. And if the answer is yes indeed, yes f76r shows a skillfully constructed portrait, employing the otherwise mysterious Voynich text letters like mosaic tiles, then the vexing question of the mysterious Voynich text takes on a new and profound complication, spanning everything from the choice of the parchment to the ink and its "touch-ups", a complication that might not sit well with previously long-held notions about the nature of the text, a complication that may even precipitate irrational behaviour on the part of self-appointed Voynich Inquisitors. And that then becomes of interest to Voynich studies sociologists, psychologists, and historians. The f76r steganographic portrait question thus has a lot going for it I think, and this richness comes from the man in the street being able to weigh in. What you've done Jan is to make me realize that the VMS author, who I do believe was a highly philosophical person, may well have contemplated the humor of this situation during the construction of the manuscript: one of the most vexing questions about the manuscript, its mysterious text, is subject to the equal-weight opinion of the man in the street! If that's right, then I think there is indeed something humorous about that. And with respect to many of my own attacks on the text over the years, I take it as a fair joke on me. My hat is off to the VMS author. Berj ************************ Subject Re: VMs: Pdf - Word Mosaic Puzzle Sent Date 11-10-2007 3:31:29 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To R. Sale wrote Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:16:33 -0800 (PST): " What is the purpose and intent of this text? Certainly (if there is meaning) the text must have content. Presuming that it is code, what is the reason that code is being used? Could it not be that the author is presenting a sort of challenge: 'To read this, you must be smarter and more clever than I.'? Not only has he created a code, he has also hidden a puzzle in the mosaic. " What is the purpose and intent of Leonardo Da Vinci recording music with bread loaves in his Last Supper: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7088600.stm if you accept that. To someone like Leonardo it might simply have been interesting to do, or perhaps he really did want to infuse into that particular painting an extra dimension that would eventually, upon discovery, inspire those people who appreciate masterful expressions of grand ideas. In the case of the VMS my own opinion is that the dedicated pursuer's unravelling of the book's mystery, gradually reveals a sophisticated philosophy of some kind, that the author wants to transmit. " ..... it may be advisable to consider the option of multiple origins and not discount the possibility of travel. " Or likewise that in many European markets "back then" you could get most anything you want, if you tried hard enough and had the money, just like today you can find all sorts of rare stuff in antique shops and yard sales. Combine that with a VMS author who has access to one of the best libraries in Europe, and he / she would be in a good position to move the apparent date of the created VMS quite a bit in time. Berj / KI3U ****************** Subject Re: VMs: Pdf - Word Mosaic Puzzle Sent Date 11-10-2007 4:39:07 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To John Venier wrote Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:26:53 -0800 (PST) " ..... but why and how would the author expect the VMS to even be seen by the very clever and persistent, much less puzzled over? " Why couldn't he? If the VMS was authored after Gutenberg, then the author could have easily surmised that eventually even a manuscript like the VMS could be mass circulated. If the author's purpose with the book was the transmission of a philosophy over the long-term, then he might have hoped for the book, on account of its uniquely mysterious aspects, to acquire some sort of qualified broad-based notice eventually. I don't see any problem with that - I have a tremendous respect for the mind of the Voynich manuscript author, and the more I study the work, the more that respect grows, and I try not to under-estimate the mind that is behind it - the mathematical aspects of the book by themselves convince me that the author was extremely sophisticated. Berj / KI3U *************************** Subject Re: VMs: Pdf - Word Mosaic Puzzle Sent Date 11-10-2007 5:11:05 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Hello Keith. I was was passively here, but just busy elsewhere chipping away at the mystery, in my own way. And will be again. If interested, you can view some f76r pictures in the J.VS Library: http://www.as.ap.krakow.pl/jvs/library/ The f76r pictures are in deposit # 14-1-2007-10-22. Presently of the pictures there, probably the best to blink against one another are these: 76rVMSblink1.tif 76rVMSblink3.tif 76rVMSblink4.tif And just for fun you can if you like see 18 pictures of 10 different faces in Library deposit # 12-1-2007-10-12 - be sure to at least have a look at "Miss Pharma", a kind of favorite at J.VS. Maybe you can figure out from the style of the shoe kicking her back what era the VMS dates from :) Well yes I read your list post a while back proposing that the group in f57v represents the VMS authors. I thought that is certainly possible, since I always allow that a team could be behind the VMS - and those guys sure give the impresssion of teamwork on an esoteric project. Those 4 fellows of f57v are also in the Library, in deposit # 9-1-2007-09-16 in connection with Jan's Kircher-letter arm-star diagram. Berj ****************** Subject [RE]VMs: Lest We Forget Sent Date 11-11-2007 10:05:48 AM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Robert joked Sun, 11 Nov 2007 05:03:40 -0500: " How many Voynichologists does it take to change a light bulb? We're not sure. The VMs may or may not have been created before the light bulb was invented. " I like it! Reminds me of a more serious personal metaphorical question: can a dim bulb illuminate the difference between, say, three quarters of a meter, and 56 - 101 million kilometers? Berj ****************** Subject VMs: Colossus Sent Date 11-16-2007 10:16:22 AM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Of possible interest: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7098005.stm ***************** Subject RE: VMs: Colossus Sent Date 11-16-2007 6:41:21 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To vms-list@voynich.net I had some tangential fun resulting from that by the way. Excerpted from J.VS comm. #118: Just for fun, we can make some substitutions of Latin letters / abbreviations for Voynich letters, say these (here using Mary D'Imperio's transcription alphabet): Latin -> MD subs: "c" -> B "o" -> D "l" -> I "ss" -> K "us" -> N and thus translate "colossus" -> MD-BDIDKN ( or equivalently EVA-cholody ). And then we can "decipher" colossus at least 4 times in the VMS; for example it occurs on lines f29v.8, 39v.14, 96r.6, and 100r.9 And interestingly, in f96r.6 and f100r.9 colossus is preceded by the same group: MD- BDI.BDIDKN And we can translate BDI.BDIDKN -> col colossus and then muse that a colossal apothecary's coliander is being discussed in this mysterious old text that seems so full of herbal suggestions. chol cholody ain't bad, but I think beedee bedidkin has a nice ring to it :) Berj ---------[ Received Mail Content ]---------- Subject : RE: VMs: Colossus Date : Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:08:55 -0500 From : Dennis S. To : vms-list@voynich.net I'm surprised that Jim Gillogly didn't challlenge it! :-) Dennis From: ki3u Subject: VMs: Colossus Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:16:22 -0500 Of possible interest: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7098005.stm ************************** Subject Re: VMs: Re: Vellum & stuff [wasRe: humanist etc] some quick questions Sent Date 11-25-2007 4:40:17 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Keith wrote Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:51:21 EST: " On my XP system I use Irfanview with extra plug-ins (free downloadable) to view the SIDs, then save as large jpgs which are much quicker to view, typically 16MB. Then view with a very old Acdsee which allows quick zoom to pixel level. " The best no-trouble viewing and manipulating (convert SID's to maximum resolution TIFF's etc.) of Mr.SID images I've come across, is the stand-alone MrSIDViewer.exe version 2.0 that was released for Windows 95/NT. Alas it does not seem to be available anymore from Lizardtech: http://www.lizardtech.com/download/dl_options.php?page=viewers But, possibly the available-for-download GeoExpress View stand-alone has superceded it; might be worth a try. Berj *************************** Subject [RE]VMs: Yipes, stripes! Look who's got 'em Sent Date 11-29-2007 7:17:36 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To R. Sale wrote Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:50:01 -0800 (PST): " How about the existence of striped logos (preferably blue and white) in heraldic blazonry? There are some examples under Italian family crests. http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats/566710 Be sure to see Bonelli, Medici, Nano, Sommariva. Don't forget there were also a pair of Medici popes: Leo X (1513-21) and Clement VII (1523-34). A second pair of blue and white striped logos in papal history. Don't that beat all? " Looks like the English "Marsh" has got 'em too (blue and white stripes that is), and they are even vertical: http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats2/3388135 while the English "Merton" stripes are slanted. Of course their white stripes are quite solid. Alas I don't see any stars in those computer generated coats, much less a box-cross. I wonder if the English "Mole" qualifies (for Don't that beat all?) - the stripes are wavy: http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats2/3388141 Berj / KI3U ******************************* Subject VMs: Hmm..... Sent Date 11-29-2007 7:36:22 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To " A book bound in the skin of an executed Jesuit priest was to be auctioned in England. The macabre, 17th-century book tells the story of the 1605 Gunpowder Plot and is covered in the hide of Father Henry Garnet. " Full article here: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0706792.htm Hmm. I wonder if this is in any way relevant to the (presumably) re-bound Voynich manusript. Catholic Encyclopedia article of Father Garnet is here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06386b.htm Berj / KI3U ******************************* Subject VMs: Fr. Theodorus Moretus Sent Date 12-04-2007 1:18:29 AM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To vms-list@voynich.net For those who are interested, we have some basic information on six letters, in the Kircher APUG online archive, written by Fr. Theodorus Moretus to Kircher. Moretus is named by Baresch in the role of a courier, in Baresch's 1639 letter to Kircher. Journal of Voynich Studies, communication #121: http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolI2007.htm Berj / KI3U *************************** Subject Re: VMs: Re: OT: Glen Sent Date 12-14-2007 11:56:17 AM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To vms-list@voynich.net David Suter wrote Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:05:34 EST: " ... I have considered that the vellum was purposefully crinkled via embossing, ... " That is an interesting idea that has affinities [1], and I think it is well worth more attention in general. Berj / KI3U [1] see for example the vexing problem of MS 408 images quality and phantoms in connection with so-called "Goggleman" in J.VS communication #108: http://geocities.com/rfamperes/JVSvolI2007.htm ************************************************* Subject Re: VMs: Re: OT: Glen Sent Date 12-14-2007 1:20:22 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To vms-list@voynich.net David Suter wrote Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:29:06 EST: " It is a staple of neurology that the infant brain and optic system are hard-wired to perceive human faces from birth (if not before) ; thus, the "face" pattern, whether frontal or in profile, is a likely matrix onto which all kinds of memorization or encrypted meanings might be encoded, for retrieval in relevant circumstances. " Well said David. If indeed the VMS author, or one of them, was an advanced artist concerned much with faces, and for me that is already established if from no other evidence than the f37v The King, then I can easily imagine this artist employing facial expressions like syllables in a kind of language to write anything he / she wanted to, as well as with ordinary text glyphs. While I have the opportunity, I want to come in positively on another idea you mentioned recently that may have been silently dismissed: the possibility that some VMS drawings are disguised military maps. Ordinarily I would dismiss that as too far off the general impressions the VMS evokes. However, independently some time ago I found myself comparing one of the herbal illustrations to an old crude military sketch of roads and villages; I don't remember the details now and it would take considerable digging in my Voynich stuff to find it, but as I recall it was a map from one of those wars back then - Hundred or Thirty Years, something like that. Anyway, the main thing for me is that it is less important that the map idea is unequivocally demonstrated than its ideas-generating power: in light of the VMS author possessing extremely advanced artistic skills, though steganographically exhibited, it is I think well to consider that he / she might have drawn maps as plants and so on. It is not a crazy idea with the world's most mysterious manuscript in my opinion. Berj ******************** Subject [RE]VMs: RE: Information Content Sent Date 12-19-2007 1:27:55 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Ben Preece wrote Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:42:57 -0600: " ... However, once one knows that a sequence is the continued fraction series for pi, there is essentially no additional information given by explicitly naming them. ... " But this seems to point out also the definition / context dependence of "information": the example is a discovery of twenty terms, presumably a series. Suppose the found scrap of paper had contained nineteen, or twenty-one, or some other number of terms coinciding with a pi series - the definite number of terms explicitly named, is information per some definition of information. One could imagine information-scenarios where the "missing pages" of the Voynich manuscript preclude reasonably reliable assessments of the information content carried by the extant Voynich text. Berj / KI3U ************************ Subject [RE]VMs: RE: RE: Information Content Sent Date 12-19-2007 5:12:02 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To John Reynolds wrote Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:44:53 -0500: " And for me the fundamental philosophical question which this excursion into information theory raises is this: Is the world really as complex as it seems, or is it really much simpler than meets the eye. And as with the world, so might we ask of the VMs. " Hmm ... Our "free will" or attitude seems to be implied, as in: what is the "information content" of "information theory" ? :) Berj *************************** Subject [RE]VMs: Sagittarius Sent Date 12-26-2007 1:07:39 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To funny bunny wrote Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:02:53 +0000: " Although with different costume and a shortbow rather than a crossbow, in manuscript M III 36 (C15th) at the University of Salzburg on page 236v, there is an illustration of Sagittarius as a human archer (as in the VM), rather than the centaur normally shown in zodiac/astronomical illustrations. http://voynichcentral.com/gallery/Quire-12/f73v http://www.ubs.sbg.ac.at/sosa/handschriften/MIII36(1v).jpg " That's a nice find. The pisces also. Berj / KI3U ******************** Subject Re: VMs: Sagittarius Sent Date 12-26-2007 3:01:48 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Jeff Haley wrote Wed, 26 Dec 2007 19:11:40 +0000: " I may well be sending something to JVS soon to add to the timeline and a document derived from Nick's book. " Hello Jeff Suggestions for timeline entries should be sent directly to the J.VS Librarian, who maintains the TL: Greg Stachowski. Greg is intensely busy at the moment (i.e. with his available Voynich time) polishing the ongoing translation of the 22 FEB 1642 Moretus letter, and I myself have a couple or three entries for the TL in the TL cue, but I'm sure Greg will get to it all in due course, and he'll be glad to see what you've got. Berj ************************** Subject VMs: [RE]VMs: Daniel Czepko - S„mtliche Werke (Michael Bartsch) Sent Date 12-29-2007 2:05:12 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Jeff Haley wrote Sat, 29 Dec 2007 17:28:20 +0000: " .... Here again we have Martin Opitz. Now also Mathias Bernegger. Both connected to Michael Bartsch. It struck me a while ago that the 'e' in the Baresch letter may well have been his perculiar way of writing a 't'. This would give us Bartsch. M. Georg Baresch could them become M(ichael) Georg Bartsch. ... " This all I find quite interesting. The poems from earlier in this thread, with just a minimal glance and effort by me, seemed to be praises by Opitz for old comrades in arms. But anyway, it all made me wonder if our 1639 Baresch approached Fr. Kircher because Baresch knew that his and Kircher's earlier relatives were acquainted. One problem is that "Bartz" (variations include Bartsch) is not an uncommon German name. But it is going to be interesting, Jeff, where all this leads to. Berj ***************************** Subject VMs: Re: VMs: [RE]VMs: Daniel Czepko - S„mtliche Werke (Michael Bartsch) Sent Date 12-31-2007 1:23:46 PM From Berj Ensanian Reply-To vms-list@voynich.net To Jeff Haley wrote Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:04:34 +0000: " ... This means Michael Bartsch may well have been a poet. ... Did any alchemists also write poetry? ... How widespread was the name Kircher/Kirchner? " I suppose alchemical verbal formulas, chants and incantations can be considered a type of poetry as well as any other. A creative alchemist could then be thought of also as a poet, and possibly such a person might possess general poetic skills of some value. So I don't see any problem in the same person being both an alchemist and a poet writing non-alchemy poetry. I haven't researched the actual name "Kircher", which again seems a not uncommon German name, and not at all peculiar. As a first guess its root might be "Kirche" (church), or "Kirsche" (cherry, i.e. the fruit). Berj ***********************************